The "Open Bet' debate rages on

Tommy_Hotspur Wrote:

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> For me a relative well written article and in
> principle I agree with his points, HOWEVER what he
> does not cover (and this comes as no great
> surprise to me as it is written/published on a GC
> sanctioned website) is the HUGe discrepancies in
> the tote payouts over the last 6-months to a year.
> Why not ask the question why the queues are now
> longer for the open bet than the tote line.....It
> isn't because the punter thinks he will get a
> better dividend due to the R1 divisor being
> included, rather than excluded as with the tote,
> but rather that he is guaranteed a certain level
> of payout. Not like the tote where you are
> guaranteed a serious case of the clap these
> days.......................
>

Also an article you didn't read properly - I made it clear in the second paragraph that I wasn't referring to fixed-odd betting. The person who bets in the open bet queue is subject to the same dividend as the tote - therefore the recent discrepancies in tote payouts are entirely irrelevant to this article.

The bottom line is that the tote does nothing for the punter.It treats it's customers like shit but expects loyalty in return,or at least that the sickness of men to gamble will merely continue unabated.To blame the 'open bet' for the current quandry that racing finds itself in is laughable.Whilst the 'open bet' is a major headache for PGE,it is PGE's conduct towards it's customers that has lead to the problems that they are currently experiencing.I posted a while ago that I was finished with bitching about the lack of customer service in this industry,and I am,I no longer even post on this site(a friend of mine brought it to my attention).I have cut my tote spend back dramatically and now only play when I feel I am likely to get a good return on investment,as opposed to doing a large turnover which provided a small ROI.ALL THESE BETS ARE NOW 'OPEN BETS'.The only time I ever put any money into my telebet account is if there is a large p6 CO as I obviously don't want to be limited to a R500k payout on a large pool.All my other tote bets are now spread amongst the various online bookmakers and are structured according to the limits that these guys offer.I have no idea what my annual turnover was last year when I was still betting on the tote,I only keep a profit/loss spreadsheet and couldn't care what the T/O was as long as I was winning.On a busy day,with a double meeting I know it sometimes reached about 70k though,so you can work it out as to what that comes to annually.

About 3 months ago I started playing poker.It is a passtime that keeps me busy when PGE is dishing up the crap meetings that it does these days.As opposed to betting 7 days a week as was previously my want I now see these meetings as the perfect opportunity to get away from my computer and to fraternize with new people.I meet many of the 'racing faces' that I know (from the days when I worked for bookmakers on the race course as a student or later when I was involved in a betting shop) when I go to the casino.The conversation always starts off the same,'What's good today?',but it tapers off quickly when I tell them that I haven't bothered studying the card because the racing is rubbish.If I ask them what they like,the answer is usually a something along the lines of 'I haven't looked either,I don't play racing much anymore'.They are desperate to have a punt,but they would rather put money into the slot machine.

The 'open bet' may be a big part of the problem in terms of racings current precarious situation,but it is certainly NOT THE CAUSE OF IT!!!

Tipster Wrote:

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> Tommy_Hotspur Wrote:
>

---

>

---

> > For me a relative well written article and in
> > principle I agree with his points, HOWEVER what
> he
> > does not cover (and this comes as no great
> > surprise to me as it is written/published on a
> GC
> > sanctioned website) is the HUGe discrepancies
> in
> > the tote payouts over the last 6-months to a
> year.
> > Why not ask the question why the queues are now
> > longer for the open bet than the tote
> line.....It
> > isn't because the punter thinks he will get a
> > better dividend due to the R1 divisor being
> > included, rather than excluded as with the
> tote,
> > but rather that he is guaranteed a certain
> level
> > of payout. Not like the tote where you are
> > guaranteed a serious case of the clap these
> > days.......................
> >
>
> Also an article you didn't read properly - I made
> it clear in the second paragraph that I wasn't
> referring to fixed-odd betting. The person who
> bets in the open bet queue is subject to the same
> dividend as the tote - therefore the recent
> discrepancies in tote payouts are entirely
> irrelevant to this article.


Fair enough David, my fault.

If there is anyone from the establishment following this thread, it must be awful to realize that you customer may love the product (horseracing, and gambling on horseracing) but hate you as the operator with a passion.

JAP above is not the only one who now punts "tote" with the bookmakers as a matter of principle.

I am now willing to believe (without evidence supplied, which is always worrying) that the open bet is indeed a very major leak for the racing operators. I must confess that most of my tote is also with bookmakers, and that is because they are just so much more efficient. All the bookmakers where I have accounts will credit a deposit within mintutes after a transfer. Others credit you with a deposit bonus. What has the tote done for you lately? As posted previously, the last 2 of 3 times to the races I couldn't get paid before I went home... most unbelievable thing ever, but it's true and I can dredge up the evidence if necessary.

The reason my wife shops at PnP is because our local is good n clean n fresh, and the average trolley is below average price. The reason I shop at the bookmakers is because they won my business the way PnP did. When the tote (the huge monopolistic empire that they are) realizes that I exist, maybe..maybe! I'll come back. As a owner and a breeder I've lost enough money not to "owe" anyone anything more as my contribution to the game.

i guess my point got across, but I made it in the wrong direction, as I now and always will have a big gripe against the tote discrepancies. There is no explanation nor will there be a proper one forthcoming.

However, I do believe that the tote is driving any and all punters in the direction of bookmakers, which would include the open bet, for whatever reason. Jack, JAP and all the other posters on here are absolutely correct. Nevermind the fact that it is happening, I think it is time that the operatorSSSSS take a hard look at why they are losing turnover and punters and start doing something about it.

This will never happen, I know.

Where do you think the money is. With these guys below who punt religiously on racing.



Or on these who spent a R1000 on a ticket for the July, with only a small percentage of them, between 1 and 3 percent, who actually stood in the tote ques or actually watched a single race. The best part is that was not even a single racing guide available in this area.



It really is time to look at the core business / income and start looking after all of the R6.00 rands being put into the game rather than kiss and lick the asses of people who will probably emigrate within the next few years.

I have defended the open bet in previous posts but my conscience did eventually get the better of me and all tote bets are now on Interbet. Nothing wrong with the service there but then again I am part of point something, something of a percent who punts this way. The rest, the punters, above are the ones who are faced with dog hole venues, bad attitude, crap service and unreliable dividends all in one foul swoop. No one is accountable to these people. No one bothers to even attempt to communicate to them.

I am not a punter who plays big so value is not core to my betting. Value is always in the fixed odds multiples for me. I can play a mini PA by selecting fixed odds place multiples at Hollywood or World of Sport.

It is clear that open bets have been around for a while. Its only now that the competition is showing themselves to be better business people is the open bet being blamed for horseracing's problems.

Bring the bookies to the table rather than ban them. Rather have people who understand the game than have, now illegal competition, advertised on course. I am sure that some sort of agreement can be reached between corporate bookmakers and the operators.

Why would bookmakers want to sit around the table?The open bet is a key element of many of their businesses,in fact the word about is that many of their businesses are in fact heavily reliant on the income that the open bet brings.To use an extremely corny phrase,'the horse has bolted' here and the possibilities of PGE winning back the customers that they have chased away is 000000000000000000000.Their arrogance is being justly rewarded!

Fair enough Jap - I think that more can be done in terms of race sponsorship and money back in to the game by having bookmakers more involved. Someone needs to replace the "Piggy Bank" excuse the pun, and why should it not be bookies. They have a far greater understanding and appreciation for the game than now illegal Casinos do. A bookies livelyhood depends on it and it is in their own interest to improve the situation rather than milk it.

It is very difficult to just ban or reduce a source of income for bookies but an alternate could be some sort of negotiated agreement on how to give back a larger portion of open bet earnings to racing. Alternatively, let the operator offer a portion of their take out in comission to bookies. Work together towards a negotiated solution rather than act the hard ass only to whine and complain to the public at large that the open bet is hurting. The open bet has been proven to not be illegal and therefore will not dissapear in a hurry.

Ignoring or writing off a situation before it has been tested will result in more procrastination and the only result, is damage to the game at large.

JAP

you left out a zero