Sporting Post-Betting Exchange article
- Unlucky_Dube
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Re: Re: Sporting Post-Betting Exchange article
14 years 1 month ago
Larceny is a crime involving the wrongful acquisition of the personal property of another person. Sounds more like the Tote and many Bookies to me Barry. Compare their prices to Betfair's and you'll see who's robbing the punter. Don't forget, without the punter, horse racing is finished.
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- Bob Brogan
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Re: Re: Sporting Post-Betting Exchange article
14 years 1 month ago
You might not think this article is linked to this thread but imo it is,with the stakes so low in the uk due to the fact the levy(tax the bookies pay) has fallen so much.
All the big bookies have moved their operations over sees so they escape paying taxes and levy and so they can compete with Betfair,betfair have also moved or are in the process of moving and since they are not bookmakers don`t need to pay into the levy but im sure they make a small token payment,so they can say we pay into the levy...
A scheduled race at Leicester on Friday has been abandoned after it attracted no entries at the final, 48-hour declaration stage on Wednesday morning.
The ladbrokes.com South Croxton Handicap, a 12-furlong contest worth £5,000, which attracted seven initial entries, appears to have been the target of a boycott by owners and trainers who support the Horsemen’s Group’s tariff on prize money, The tariff claims that a Class 4 handicap staged on a Friday should be worth at least £7,000.
A maiden event on tomorrow’s card has now been divided to maintain the advertised six-race programme, which begins at 2.10pm. Only one of the six events will offer a purse in excess of the Horsemen’s tariff.
Leicester is one of the country’s remaining “independent” tracks, outside the control of a major ownership group such as Arena Leisure or Northern Racing. As such, it is reminiscent of a family-run corner shop in a world dominated by Tesco and Sainsbury’s, and particularly vulnerable to a boycott.
The abandonment of Friday’s race is Leicester’s second setback in a fortnight as a result of the owners’ campaign for higher prize money. Its meeting on 16 April staged the first walkover in Britain since 2007, when Saint Helena, the sole entry for a handicap worth £6,000, cantered down to the furlong pole and back in order to claim the purse.
Nick Lees, the chairman of Leicester, said that he was “very disappointed” by the situation, but not surprised. “”I had suspicions something like this was going to happen because the race had such a low entry,” he said.
William Jarvis, whose recent winner Bouggatti was among the initial entries for the race, said that his decision to declare the gelding was entirely down to the prize money on offer.
“I’m not running purely because the race falls some way below tariff,” Jarvis said. “I like Leicester as a racecourse, the facilities are good, they’ve made a big effort on the stable lads’ accommodation, but they’ve got to wise up. It’s nothing against Leicester, it is against the tariff. Other racecourses have raised their game and so should Leicester. This is the second time it’s happened this year. They’ve had one walkover and now a void race.”
All the big bookies have moved their operations over sees so they escape paying taxes and levy and so they can compete with Betfair,betfair have also moved or are in the process of moving and since they are not bookmakers don`t need to pay into the levy but im sure they make a small token payment,so they can say we pay into the levy...
A scheduled race at Leicester on Friday has been abandoned after it attracted no entries at the final, 48-hour declaration stage on Wednesday morning.
The ladbrokes.com South Croxton Handicap, a 12-furlong contest worth £5,000, which attracted seven initial entries, appears to have been the target of a boycott by owners and trainers who support the Horsemen’s Group’s tariff on prize money, The tariff claims that a Class 4 handicap staged on a Friday should be worth at least £7,000.
A maiden event on tomorrow’s card has now been divided to maintain the advertised six-race programme, which begins at 2.10pm. Only one of the six events will offer a purse in excess of the Horsemen’s tariff.
Leicester is one of the country’s remaining “independent” tracks, outside the control of a major ownership group such as Arena Leisure or Northern Racing. As such, it is reminiscent of a family-run corner shop in a world dominated by Tesco and Sainsbury’s, and particularly vulnerable to a boycott.
The abandonment of Friday’s race is Leicester’s second setback in a fortnight as a result of the owners’ campaign for higher prize money. Its meeting on 16 April staged the first walkover in Britain since 2007, when Saint Helena, the sole entry for a handicap worth £6,000, cantered down to the furlong pole and back in order to claim the purse.
Nick Lees, the chairman of Leicester, said that he was “very disappointed” by the situation, but not surprised. “”I had suspicions something like this was going to happen because the race had such a low entry,” he said.
William Jarvis, whose recent winner Bouggatti was among the initial entries for the race, said that his decision to declare the gelding was entirely down to the prize money on offer.
“I’m not running purely because the race falls some way below tariff,” Jarvis said. “I like Leicester as a racecourse, the facilities are good, they’ve made a big effort on the stable lads’ accommodation, but they’ve got to wise up. It’s nothing against Leicester, it is against the tariff. Other racecourses have raised their game and so should Leicester. This is the second time it’s happened this year. They’ve had one walkover and now a void race.”
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- rob faux
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Re: Re: Sporting Post-Betting Exchange article
14 years 1 month ago
I am amazed at the mentality that fully supports tote betting BUT NOT Betting Exchanges......they are exactly the same principle......facilitation of persons betting against each other....one is merely fixed price (and has the benefit of reducing the role of "bookies")
If you disagree with the contribution to the industry,of exchanges,then by all means address that detail......not the principle!
If you disagree with the contribution to the industry,of exchanges,then by all means address that detail......not the principle!
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- Jack Dash
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Re: Re: Sporting Post-Betting Exchange article
14 years 1 month ago
Rob, you are an acknowledged fan of exchanges because it suits you to try and get the best odds for yourself. Nothing wrong there. But you can frame the argument for them from as many angles as you like, exchanges do not pay for the show unless they are somehow forced to or you rely on their sense of self preservation which compels them to contribute.
An exchange is a very profitable model for its owners. The question you may want to consider is how large a competitor can the racing operators survive against?
For example, in his book No Easy Money, David Nevison noted that over a period of 60 months he won about 500,000 pounds on betfair, and with a commission rate of 2,5% to 3% a third of that income went to commission. Just like the tote, these are great cash-cow businesses to own and they suck money from the gambling pie.
In a market as small as SA, if laying bets were to be open to the public as an exchange allows, it would make the most sense for (and I can't believe I'm saying this) a not for profit organisation to manage it and distribute income to the various events gambled on. As bad as that sounds, you don't really want Pick 6 pools or lotteries in the hands of a few individuals. They are such cash cows, they need to be recycled back in.
An exchange is a very profitable model for its owners. The question you may want to consider is how large a competitor can the racing operators survive against?
For example, in his book No Easy Money, David Nevison noted that over a period of 60 months he won about 500,000 pounds on betfair, and with a commission rate of 2,5% to 3% a third of that income went to commission. Just like the tote, these are great cash-cow businesses to own and they suck money from the gambling pie.
In a market as small as SA, if laying bets were to be open to the public as an exchange allows, it would make the most sense for (and I can't believe I'm saying this) a not for profit organisation to manage it and distribute income to the various events gambled on. As bad as that sounds, you don't really want Pick 6 pools or lotteries in the hands of a few individuals. They are such cash cows, they need to be recycled back in.
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- rob faux
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Re: Re: Sporting Post-Betting Exchange article
14 years 1 month ago
Jack,I am totally with you on that.....My suggestion has always been that the tote should merely be extended to include a fixed price section (bolt on an exchange to the tote) and that it should be controlled by a NATIONAL OWNERS and BREEDERS organisation....who can balance the need for stakes with providing a sustainable product to punters.
Take-out is then restricted to tax and expenses at cost, and all surplus to stakes(no room for dividends)
If you want to be a "shareholder",in line for a return.......Take a bet &/or buy a horse!
I equally have no problem with "P" taking over Gold Circle as long as their monopoly is restricted to "operations" but Racing will not survive one Company controlling all operations,regulation and gambling income,and we are almost there now!
Take-out is then restricted to tax and expenses at cost, and all surplus to stakes(no room for dividends)
If you want to be a "shareholder",in line for a return.......Take a bet &/or buy a horse!
I equally have no problem with "P" taking over Gold Circle as long as their monopoly is restricted to "operations" but Racing will not survive one Company controlling all operations,regulation and gambling income,and we are almost there now!
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- Frodo
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Re: Re: Sporting Post-Betting Exchange article
14 years 1 month ago
rob faux Wrote:
> Jack,I am totally with you on that.....My
> suggestion has always been that the tote should
> merely be extended to include a fixed price
> section (bolt on an exchange to the tote) and that
> it should be controlled by a NATIONAL OWNERS and
> BREEDERS organisation....who can balance the need
> for stakes with providing a sustainable product to
> punters.
> Take-out is then restricted to tax and expenses at
> cost, and all surplus to stakes(no room for
> dividends)
> If you want to be a "shareholder",in line for a
> return.......buy a horse!
>
> I equally have no problem with "P" taking over
> Gold Circle as long as their monopoly is
> restricted to "operations" but Racing will not
> survive one Company controlling all
> operations,regulation and gambling income,and we
> are almost there now!
Would agree, with perhaps one 'enhancement' - it should be controlled by a NATIONAL OWNERS, BREEDERS and PUNTERS organisation
> Jack,I am totally with you on that.....My
> suggestion has always been that the tote should
> merely be extended to include a fixed price
> section (bolt on an exchange to the tote) and that
> it should be controlled by a NATIONAL OWNERS and
> BREEDERS organisation....who can balance the need
> for stakes with providing a sustainable product to
> punters.
> Take-out is then restricted to tax and expenses at
> cost, and all surplus to stakes(no room for
> dividends)
> If you want to be a "shareholder",in line for a
> return.......buy a horse!
>
> I equally have no problem with "P" taking over
> Gold Circle as long as their monopoly is
> restricted to "operations" but Racing will not
> survive one Company controlling all
> operations,regulation and gambling income,and we
> are almost there now!
Would agree, with perhaps one 'enhancement' - it should be controlled by a NATIONAL OWNERS, BREEDERS and PUNTERS organisation
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- rob faux
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Re: Re: Sporting Post-Betting Exchange article
14 years 1 month ago
Frodo,nice idea but my 40+ years of racing has convinced me that punters can't agree on anything for very long!
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- rob faux
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Re: Re: Sporting Post-Betting Exchange article
14 years 1 month ago
Jack,you will be surprised to know that all my horseracing,fixed price bets,are with SA bookmakers.
I use Betfair to lay or to trade 'changing prices' ONLY and love the challenge that it presents (for me it beats the hell out of Forex or Poker!!!!).....that is the world that very few experience and if it becomes widely available, will create a "new wave" of gambler,IMO.
I use Betfair to lay or to trade 'changing prices' ONLY and love the challenge that it presents (for me it beats the hell out of Forex or Poker!!!!).....that is the world that very few experience and if it becomes widely available, will create a "new wave" of gambler,IMO.
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- Barry Irwin
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Re: Re: Sporting Post-Betting Exchange article
14 years 1 month ago
Jack...point well taken.
The best way foward for everybody in the world is for the horsemen/owners to own the tote, make it a non-profit, and split in some fashion with racing associations. The takeout must be as low as possible, so that rebates to big bettors is built into the commission and not handed back to certain punters. Bookies and betting exchanges are bad for business. Both for horsemen and punters.
The best way foward for everybody in the world is for the horsemen/owners to own the tote, make it a non-profit, and split in some fashion with racing associations. The takeout must be as low as possible, so that rebates to big bettors is built into the commission and not handed back to certain punters. Bookies and betting exchanges are bad for business. Both for horsemen and punters.
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- Bob Brogan
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Re: Re: Sporting Post-Betting Exchange article
14 years 1 month ago
How are bookies and exchanges bad for punters Barry?
they don`t take 25% out like the tote
they don`t take 25% out like the tote
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- rob faux
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Re: Re: Sporting Post-Betting Exchange article
14 years 1 month ago
Many owners believe punters owe them stakes .......the stakes pools are showing the folly of this attitude!
A strategy of seducing punters may well work better than raping them!
(Barry,what do mean by "not handed back to certain punters" ..............thats what totes do FFS .....they are called winnings!)
A strategy of seducing punters may well work better than raping them!
(Barry,what do mean by "not handed back to certain punters" ..............thats what totes do FFS .....they are called winnings!)
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- Dave Scott
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Re: Re: Sporting Post-Betting Exchange article
14 years 1 month ago
I think there is a "niche" in the market for all 3.
The tote for exotics (except the ATC bet)
The bookies for fixed odds and multiples
An exchange to attract the new breed/yuppies to use as a trading tool.
As long as "racing" get a proper cut on each transaction.
How to manage is another story?
Plus it should be added, in SA is our (racing) market big enough? also considering the rise in (sports) betting.
The tote for exotics (except the ATC bet)
The bookies for fixed odds and multiples
An exchange to attract the new breed/yuppies to use as a trading tool.
As long as "racing" get a proper cut on each transaction.
How to manage is another story?
Plus it should be added, in SA is our (racing) market big enough? also considering the rise in (sports) betting.
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