14,000 - THROUGH THE GATE

Zsuz as much as we try and hope to disguise it, the ladies with their afluence who you care to mention are in the same pot as me, the legends in the tote and the first time trier. Do we eat from the same table? The difference is some can afford to be hurt far more than others. I am with Mr H on the fact that racing does not exist without addiction.

Reality, as you have correctly put, is that we are in it for the love of the horse before the money. Maybe more correctly put, its for the challenge before any other bet. Filling in blocks on a piece of paper and praying for the ownership of the world is for fools. Pushing buttons is for monkeys, escaping to the moon! Racing puts "the dream" in our hands. We, or should I say I, are responsible for the decisions we make. True to every aspect of this game! Its a decision game, which mirrors life. No one is repsonsible for the mistakes we make and we hardly share the glory when those decisions are right.

Fact is; the gnarly pay royalties to royalty and the gnarly lose their shirts in the fight but no one enjoys being led to the flood!

I am happy to concede your point if you can offer an explanation for why, if people purely bet because they are addicted to gambling as you argue they do, when faced with all the options, would they choose to gamble on horse racing, rather than other things??

We've ruled out the service, the atmosphere, the entertainment value, the food, the toilets, the odds, the likelihood of winning, the love of the sport, etc etc etc.

So why do people choose to bet on horses specifically ?

Zsuzs thats the problem punters are not choosing to punt the horses,it`s the same few thousand punters that support the whole industry,and when this generation dies/gets bored/whatever, whats next?

As the price of fuel goes up every month so does the price of food and every thing else,for a family of four to spend a day at the course you will need at least R500 for petrol,food,drinks entertainment etc before you can even have a bet...

zsuzsanna04 Wrote:

---

> I am happy to concede your point if you can offer
> an explanation for why, if people purely bet
> because they are addicted to gambling as you argue
> they do, when faced with all the options, would
> they choose to gamble on horse racing, rather than
> other things??
>
> We've ruled out the service, the atmosphere, the
> entertainment value, the food, the toilets, the
> odds, the likelihood of winning, the love of the
> sport, etc etc etc.
>
> So why do people choose to bet on horses
> specifically ?


for most they started many years ago when it was the only legal form of gambling(many inherited the affliction from a male family member) - they are addicted full stop - They cannot understand the lotto(they do not get a fix there as the draw takes too long) - I know they are addicted because most of them use a free tab sheet or the citizen to punt with as they need to punt daily and the cost of a form guide seems like a waste of money - all day long they churn over their cash - If you believe they have some asthetic love for the horse then I think you are mislead (just listen to the comments when a jockey does not "hit" the horse enough in the last 200m)- they do however love the HIGH and LOW that picking a winner gives them - A casino does not have the same thrill and many cannot understand how the tables work - If there is this HUGH untapped market of people that could love racing because of a love for the HORSE then I think DSTV would love Teletrack because the viewership would be sky high - The reality is that there is not - I , as most males do, channel surf - this has lead me to discover a liking for Gold Mining, Cooking and Sea Dragons but i still have not found Religion as those channels are skipped - I think most people that watch DSTV skip Teletrack in the same manner.

Zsuz, the other thing that's interesting is the people surrounding racing. Again the Americans do a much more professional take on them. SA writing and SA TV dokkies tend to be smoochie affairs with the people portrayed as stained-glass saints. Somehow I doubt they are.

Zsuz, I thought that I answered your question already:

Lotto: "Filling in blocks on a piece of paper and praying for the ownership of the world is for fools".
Casino Slot Machines: "Pushing buttons is for monkeys, escaping to the moon!"
Racing: "its for the challenge before any other bet" "Racing puts "the dream" in our hands." "Its a decision game"

Mr H is 100% in his response. I have been into a tote where players view big races as race numbers i.e. race 6 or 7 not the guineas or SA Classic. There are a few that sit inbetween your and Mr H's realities i.e. Those that love to punt and have a genuine love for horses; or should I say the game; which is made up of big races, equine and human athletes. Some of them feature on this website.

I think that once again this topic has ventured off elsewhere but highlights, once again, narrow views. Look at the whole picture. We can all see the pretty side of racing, the big investors etc and yes they deserve all the accolades and air time for the money they put in but what we don't want to see (read as hear) is the life blood of the industry, the gnarly. Rather stash them away and let them not speak or have an opinion. Punters should be seen and not heard, seems to be the method. Its similar to the cameras turning away from a horse caught in the stalls. No one wants to see that but we cannot deny the reality that it happens. Punters cannot be ignored or denied and if they are, the nearest future generations may come to a racehorse in future, is on a English race being broadcast on Tellytrack.

Zsuz you elude to horses being low down in the order of the racing heirachy, we all know which group sits at the bottom of that hierachy and its a shame because that homogenous group turns the wheels that feed the ladies you mentioned, desire to race. I sincerely doubt that they would race horses on eachothers farms for love of the horse only and if they did the scale of the operations would microcosm of what it is now.

Here's one for you - there are millions of dog owner/lovers in South Africa - If Dog racing were to start tomorrow would 1% of them start punting on the Dogs? Racing is about Gambling and Gambling is about addiction - get more people addicted and you keep racing going.

Alcaponee,whether it's PC to say so or not, there are tiers in racing as in life. That's just the way it goes. It does not make anyone's contribution (at anything) on any level of the scale any more or less meaningful.

My point in mentioning the list of women was merely in response to Mr H's assertion that he does not see women in betting shops. I was trying to point out that in fact women do contribute to racing in a monetary way. And if they breed / own / etc (which is a big enough punt if you ask me) the likelihood is that they at least occasionally place a bet as well. So women do bet. That was the only point I was trying to make.

The people mentioned may be more fiscally blessed than some, but the same can be said for a lot of gentlemen in the game. Again, that is just life. And whether one chooses a free TAB sheet, a Citizen, a Sporting Post, a Computaform or a sales catalogue, we all have to fit our lifestyle around our means and if that is what the means allow, then so be it. That is simple economics and free will at work.

I may wrong, but it sounds as though I think you are trying to say that the betting shop is more important than the private box, which I have to argue. Racing has many tiers and many inextricably linked facets and it depends on having people at all of those levels to make it work. EVERYONE contributes and whether you contribute at the top, the bottom or the middle, surely makes no difference? The important thing is that you do contribute.

The only difference between the betting shop 'addict' and the top tier owner is scale, but they both make the same choice - to invest in racing. Whether one can afford to take more of a hit than another is neither here not there, the choice remains the same. But that's really a separate discussion and one on which I can see that we'll have to agree to disagree.

If racing is for the challenge before any other bet" "Racing puts "the dream" in our hands." "Its a decision game", then are you saying that the addicts are addicted to the challenge? Are they addicted to the 'what if' aspect of a life, changing, big money win? Or are they addicted to your assertion that racing offers them a 'choice', giving them some sort of decision-making power they perhaps do not have in other spheres of life ?

I personally think those are pretty sophisticated thought processes for an addict....

Going back to some of the arguments put forward, if the assertion (by what sounds like some of the punters) that racing results are not trustworthy (or at least pretty erratic) is in fact correct, then surely there is no challenge and it is simply a pure gamble ?

If 'the dream' is for a big money pay off, then to use an uneven comparison, surely the odds are even higher by taking the lottery and offer a bigger pay off ? (if the wait is too long, simply play the Lotto a few minutes before the draw ?). Or buy a scratch card ??

And again, if the assertions that racing is pretty unreliable are correct, then I fail to see that racing offers any real decision on behalf of the punter, because it is so poorly explained and there is so little real information available that I cannot see what any decision is based on.

But whether either (or neither) of us are correct, it would seem that our arguments are pretty similar - whether you are a purist or a punter, it would appear that racing is not being marketed satisfactorily at either end of the scale.

Perhaps the more important question is how do we market racing successfully going forward?

I see no difference between a person that bets R10 a day and someone doing 10 k the point is that we need more of these addicts to keep racing going -

Zsuz hopefully a quickfire response to your post.

The private box and betting shop is equally important. I am not knocking the top of the pile, I am saying that the bottom goes largely ignored. Your last line speaks to this and we agree on this.

Addicts are not mindless beings. They can function normally and at times function at a higher level than the average Joe because most of the time they are finding clever ways to feed their addiction. I am no expert but in my experience of running a night club, growing up with alcoholism in the home etc and battling to quit smoking, I know a little bit about addiction.

To answer your questions on "racing puts the dream in our hands" etc etc.

1. Yes in punting terms punters (addicts in some instances) are addicted to the challenge that only racing and perhaps poker can offer. No challenge in taking a quick pick on the lotto or pushing buttons on a slot machine.
2. Yes they are addicted to a life changing win
3. Horse Racing punters in general believe they have more chance of winning. It has nothing IMO to do with not having control of other spheres of life, I would rather say more control than in other spheres of gambling.
4. Sittng in a tote is the best place to learn about the apparent underbelly of the game. Mostly theory but the common theme or result is that they come back for more with thoughts of timing their thinking with the apparent scheme and winning! This is the challenge. Of course when they lose it is always "I was going to do ths and that, see I even marked it on the formguide or I knew that trainer was going to pull a move!"

Mr H is on the nose. Operators have to be careful on the addiction issue and play the PC angle and post national responsible gambling numbers etc on their marketing material electronic and print. Its the same as the alcohol ads that say drink responsibly. Do these ads reduce binging? Nope, like it or not they need the punter / drinker to binge. Its just not PC be honest about it.

Back to the subject at hand that led us to this point, I still believe that we need numbers through the gate to pick up some new blood and potential addicts. The purists and the monied will dissapear from racing without the funding of the addict.

I think MrH has answered best..........Dog lover does not = Dog bettor anymore than horse lover= horse bettor
Horseracing was the only form of gambling legalised in the old days,and their justification was that it was predictable....................................That was the edge and start that racing had over Casinos etc. but our idiots ignored that and then allowed the regulation to become nearly non-existant so horses are no longer required to race on merit.
Racing needs to be seen to be as squeaky clean as possible otherwise there is no product to market!
You will never see a bookmaker priced up on wrestling............lol