stipes report Lizzy Grey

  • blueyonder001
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Re: Re: stipes report Lizzy Grey

13 years 3 months ago
#233142
yes tough luck because i lost due to pilot error the horse came down but im not upset that happens part of racing - im not talking about that dont now change the topic i wasnt born yesterday i was born at night but not last night. Our stipes need to go for lessons in Mauritius then maybe they will do a better job

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  • JustinV
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Re: Re: stipes report Lizzy Grey

13 years 3 months ago
#233143
blueyonder001 Wrote:
> i actually covered with the winner so im not
> talking from my pocket -im talking about what is
> just and fair and integrity of racing. Do you
> think its fair when the stipes look at the tac and
> find nothing wrong ? what is your answer to this

didnt the report say the saddle was found to be in good order?? that just means there was no breakages doesnt it?? and the problem that happened was not due to a break anyway?

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  • Titch
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Re: Re: stipes report Lizzy Grey

13 years 3 months ago
#233145
Blue if the horse was declared a non runner then those who backed the winner would have had to suffer a deduction and cried foul play...once the red mist has settled and you can get your head around the fact that it was an unfortunate mishap you will then be more open to see that there was nothing untoward done just a regrettable mishap that thankfully never resulted in any serious injury and once the winner comes out and does us proud in Dubai you will understand that the result would have been the same no matter what...
Give everything but up!

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  • gg
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Re: Re: stipes report Lizzy Grey

13 years 3 months ago
#233167
You put your Hard earned money in a slot machine and Yes ,Its gone .Call the stipes.
Surely that is what gambling/ punting is about.

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  • zsuzsanna04
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Re: Re: stipes report Lizzy Grey

13 years 3 months ago
#233178
Interesting discussion - thanks for all the contributions.

I think what is patently clear is that there is very little communication / understanding across the various facets of the game. This is not a criticism - merely an observation.

Jockeys are not allowed to punt (officially anyway), so are therefore seldom in the shoes of the punter.

Punters do not ride horses, so it's pretty difficult for them to understand the difficulties and dangers.

Trainers have a different perspective again, as do breeders, as do owners. Sometimes these different spheres cross over and sometimes they don't. So some people will have more of an understanding of certain aspects of the game than others. That's just a fact.

Years ago, it was standard to use leather bridles, reins, saddles, stirrup leathers etc. Leather is a natural substance and can tear, break, rot, etc causing failure during a race (I recall many incidents of reins breaking during races back in the day). I ride 'normal' horses and can tell you that breaking a rein is not a lot of fun even at slow speeds.

However, the reason for using leather is that sometimes a rider's safety DEPENDS on things breaking - if you get caught in any piece of kit, you pray like hell that it WILL break so that you can fall free of the horse - otherwise you get dragged along behind and that opens up a whole new world of pain and interesting options for injuring yourself.

These days the majority of bridles are synthetic (the colourful Wintec bridles which are made of some sort of webbing 'core' coated in plastic so that they are easy to clean). This reduces the risk of things breaking. Which is good and bad, but it seems people have opted for the reliability option.

Another bit of kit that has changed on bridles is the bits used. In days gone by, a lot of trainers favoured straight rubber bar snaffles (imagine a 5 inch sausage made out of rubber with a ring on either end for the bridle & reins to attach to). I've seen those break mid-gallop and mid-race. Not fun. These days most folks use metal bits. Which can also fatigue and fail. Again, it's rare, but it can happen.

Next piece of kit is the saddle. Which is effectively a bit of saddle shaped synthetic material that you're trying to secure to a moving, sweaty barrel so that a jockey can balance on top. Saddles are held in place with an elasticated girth (which attaches on either side of the saddle) and are usually secured with a second surcingle which goes over the top of the saddle and girth and right around the horse. So now you've got something that sits more or less like a ring on your finger that can effectively still rotate around the barrel.

Another point is that racing saddles are really only platforms to attach stirrup hooks and stirrups to and do not really have much in the way of a tree. A tree is a framework inside a saddle that gives it shape and should, in theory, fit to the contours of the horse's back. A correctly fitting saddle will by virtue of design, also sit better. Obviously racing saddles are designed to go onto any sort of horse - from a small skinny baby to a big broad colt, so you can more or less throw saddle fit out of the window - it does not apply (some horses have narrow spines, some broad spines, etc and there is a 'channel' down the middle of the saddle to allow space for the spine. If you have a narrow channel, you pinch the horse's spine. If you have a wide channel, you risk the saddle sitting too low and actually putting all that weight directly onto the spine - not comfortable - or being able to wiggle side to side - also not comfortable.

Designs differ depending what what you buy and who you buy from, but basically they're trying to produce a one size fits all type of product. And as we all know, if you try to please everyone, you usually end up pleasing no-one. But hey, racehorses don't wear racing saddles for very long, so what the heck.

Next let's consider the girth. There is quite a bit of debate as to how tight is too tight. You want it tight enough to hold the saddle in place (obviously), but also remember that those lungs run longitudinally along either side of the barrel of the horse and a horse needs to breathe in order to run.

Breast plates or breast girths as they are occasionally called attach either side of the girth and run horizontally around the front of the horse. They usually come with a handy neck strap type arrangement built in which is a handy additional 'handle' (alternatively some jockeys simply use their own neck straps (any sort of strap that can go around the horse's neck). A breast plate basically tries to stop the saddle sliding backwards. But as Chip pointed out, they are not mandatory.

Then you need to factor in stirrup leathers (the straps that attach to the saddle and from which the stirrups are suspended) and of course the stirrups themselves.

I'm probably forgetting one or two things, but basically, there are quite a few things that can break, malfunction, not quite hitch through properly, etc. It happens. The world isn't perfect. People are human. Things break. But everything has to be checked and / or replaced regularly to make sure that it's in good working order.

Because the bottom line (as with anything to do with horses) is safety.

Whether there was any monkey business in the race in question will no doubt continue to be debated, but personally I would think are easier ways to make a few bucks than risking ones neck !

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  • zsuzsanna04
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Re: Re: stipes report Lizzy Grey

13 years 3 months ago
#233179
I do like the idea of any horses that suffer equipment malfunctions, jump badly losing lengths at the start, etc being declared non-runners, but I somehow can't see the number crunchers going for it.

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  • Don
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Re: Re: stipes report Lizzy Grey

13 years 3 months ago
#233213
if the number crunchers want numbers to crunch in the future, they will have to give it some serious consideration.

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  • mikesack
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Re: Re: stipes report Lizzy Grey

13 years 3 months ago
#233216
We are nearing the silly season again [Christmas in July] and punters are forewarned to take extreme caution with all the hype and activity building up to the Big one, so lots of doubles , trebles etc. all onto the July winner becos everybody wants to be a winner on July day.There will be upsets, whether planned or not and short-priced favorites will get rolled many factors to consider this time of the year, going extremely firm in TVL, draw bias at Scottsville down the straight, Cape racing now to have more yielding, soft tracks due to Winter rainfall so proceed with caution. Must admit if that incident occurred in the days of old when punters thronged to the racetracks, there very well could have been a riot on course.I am sure somewhere in the history books such act did occur with punters setting fire etc. at Greyville many years ago.

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  • Pirhobeta
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Re: Re: stipes report Lizzy Grey

13 years 3 months ago
#233236
blueyonder001 Wrote:
> Pirhobeta - would it not be fair then that if no
> failure in equipment is proved by the stipes then
> it should have been declared a non runner just to
> ensure no possible malpractice for the public? Rob
> would love your opinion on this ? surely this
> would ensure no possible benefit to a possible
> dishonest jockey

You put me between a rock and a hard place...I think this is something that must be decided by panel of interested parties representatives. However, this then leads to other disparities. At what stage of the race may a runner be declared a non-runner? As an example, one of the forum topics discuss the running of Chesalon and some people are of the opinion that the jock was to blame for it being baulked during the running. The question arises, do we declare that horse a non-runner?( I totally disagree as no-one can go into a race with only one game plan because the race may not pan out in your favour. With hindsight I can pick a straight-line pick six.)

I think their interpretation of the Lizzy Grey incident was based on the balance of probability. Would a qualified jockey commit such a reckless act intentionally? Remembering that he has had the experience of falls etc and understands the injury consequences to himself. (Would require a very large pay check to cover disability or death, by potentially bringing down a horse)

I however also agree with yourself and Rob that we need more qualified investigation results, or better transparency/explanations of these transgressions. (I am not always able to explain myself satisfactorily)
I think what is really needed is some fresh blood but it requires willing persons to give up their time and energy for a thankless job.

This is why I appreciate the comments from Craig,Gavin,Chippy,the Shams and all those who have worked with horses and the horse racing system, who are providing us with a degree of transparency from their perspective, which until I came across this forum, I never encountered.

I'm a 48 year old 88kg wannabe jockey that has never ridden a horse, but thinks he could teach Muis how to ride. HahaB)-

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  • Pirhobeta
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Re: Re: stipes report Lizzy Grey

13 years 3 months ago
#233238
monty Wrote:
> Just my view on the current subject and there are
> a lot more experienced posters on this site who
> have given valuable insight into this post.Posters
> come on this site and rightly or wrongly make
> accusations against trainers or jockeys who they
> in thier opinion consider to be dishonest or whose
> free information does not pan out . Whislt posters
> are clearly entitled to thier opinon i belive that
> the best way to solve your suspicions is to never
> put your hard earned cash on jockeys you do not
> trust or utilise what u consider to be unrealiable
> information.
> i wont put a bet on a certain jockey doesnt matter
> what he rides ,so if he gets beaten on a favourite
> for any reason i dont lose money so dont have to
> talk from my pocket.

Yes Monty I side with your viewpoint. Don't use your hard earned cash on persons that you regard as dodgy...(tu)
In my opinion there is no fair, foul free sport or business. Every activity has those who shall try and benefit from others unfairly. Even those in which no money changes hands...

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  • Craig Eudey
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Re: Re: stipes report Lizzy Grey

13 years 3 months ago
#233243
Listening or actually reading some of the absolutely stupid comments in this thread, do you understand why the trainers jockeys etc do not want to contribute and post. Why should they or closer to home, why do I bother? The thought that Kevin would do that intentionally and risk a huge injury or death is ludicrous. He does not need the money. If you want more transparency with trainers, jockeys and owners posting, here then stop listening or even entertaining some of the absolute cr.p that has been written about Kevins ride on LG. My patience has eventually worn out with this thread and that takes a lot of sh.t to be spoken to do that.

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  • Pirhobeta
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Re: Re: stipes report Lizzy Grey

13 years 3 months ago
#233244
zsuzsanna04 Wrote:
> I do like the idea of any horses that suffer
> equipment malfunctions, jump badly losing lengths
> at the start, etc being declared non-runners, but
> I somehow can't see the number crunchers going for
> it.


Could not quote your previous post...too long... but you are correct. I know nothing about riding gear, so thanks for your information. In the climbing environment, the kit is divided into hardware and software, the karabiners etc being the hardware and the harnesses being the software. All hardware is stamped with a safe working load and date of manufacture and has a maximum 10 year working life. Whilst the software has a maximum 5 year working life if I remember correctly. All subject to a check every time it is used by the user and an annual check by a qualified competent person. Would this be feasible in the horseracing environment?
re:" I do like the idea of any horses that suffer equipment malfunctions, jump badly losing lengths at the start, etc being declared non-runners, but I somehow can't see the number crunchers going for it."
What if the jock could not get the horse to handle the bend, like has happened a few times lately at Clairwood. Do we blame the horse or the jock? Can I get a refund?
All tongue in cheek and not directed at you...but I can see the cigol being applied.

Sorry for my disjointed replies. I started replying to some of the earlier posts without reading to the last first. Busy cooking too and trying to have my 2 cents worth...
I really enjoy the viewpoints of all, even the ones I do not agree with. With no money on the line, I can "afford" to be more flippant than those who depend financially on these decisions.

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