Handicaps..are they right?
- Sylvester
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Re: Re: Handicaps..are they right?
16 years 5 months ago
Enjoy your 2nd last line. Great comment. You should list as quote by JD under wikipedia.
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- magiclips
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Re: Re: Handicaps..are they right?
16 years 5 months ago
JackD, a return to race figures would be the kiss of death. It was the woirst system of so-called handicapping ever devised, and cut short more than one decent horse's career because the system insisted on asking horses to do the impossible. It was in fact built into the system that all but the very best horses would not maximise their potential.
I'm happy for you that you think that's a good idea, but I'm afraid to say that you are wrong. This is not a bleeding heart charity. This is a business which is getting more and more expensive by the day. Anything (and I mean anything) which maximises a horse's earning potential must be a good thing. Bring on maiden handicaps, selling races, the whole shooting match. We are in no position to waste the earning potential of a large proportion of our horse population, which is precisely what a return to race figure handicapping would achieve.
Horses need to win races to keep owners, breeders, trainers and jockeys interested. Within out current handicapping system, good horses still maximise their potential. We still get champions. We also get the bread-and-butter horses which effectively keep the whole show viable. We simply cannot afford to go back to the old system, in this day and age. Purists are all very well in a dream world, but the reality is that times have changed. Purists may hate merit ratings, just as purists may detest limited overs cricket, but both are modern developments that are here to stay.
Thank f#ck.
I'm happy for you that you think that's a good idea, but I'm afraid to say that you are wrong. This is not a bleeding heart charity. This is a business which is getting more and more expensive by the day. Anything (and I mean anything) which maximises a horse's earning potential must be a good thing. Bring on maiden handicaps, selling races, the whole shooting match. We are in no position to waste the earning potential of a large proportion of our horse population, which is precisely what a return to race figure handicapping would achieve.
Horses need to win races to keep owners, breeders, trainers and jockeys interested. Within out current handicapping system, good horses still maximise their potential. We still get champions. We also get the bread-and-butter horses which effectively keep the whole show viable. We simply cannot afford to go back to the old system, in this day and age. Purists are all very well in a dream world, but the reality is that times have changed. Purists may hate merit ratings, just as purists may detest limited overs cricket, but both are modern developments that are here to stay.
Thank f#ck.
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- tangles
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Re: Re: Handicaps..are they right?
16 years 5 months ago
Jack Dash,i completely agree with you regards race figure days
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- magiclips
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Re: Re: Handicaps..are they right?
16 years 5 months ago
I don't for one moment mean to give the impression that the present system doesn't have its problems. There are causes for concern, and no doubt ways could be explored to try and make it better. I agree with those who feel that 3yos are often rated too highly, and enough has been said about the MRs of the current 3yo crop.
However, a return to race figures is not the answer. Do that, and you may as well shoot two-thirds of the racehorse population.
However, a return to race figures is not the answer. Do that, and you may as well shoot two-thirds of the racehorse population.
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- Jack Dash
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Re: Re: Handicaps..are they right?
16 years 5 months ago
Of course you would never have to shoot 2/3 of the population, because this is just a matter of HOW the existing pie is distributed.
To keep figures simple, at present:
-Half of any given crop can win 1 or more races, while the other half will die maidens.
However vile you may consider the race figure system, the thing that I do like about it was that it DID count wins to steer the progess of a career.
I remember that Millard would take a horse through a Maiden, a Novice and then say a Progress. If successful he would try a B Div against older horses and multiple winners. If he won that, he would knew he could have a proper shot at the Guineas.
Every time a horse receiving 10Kg's wins a race, you have LET the inferior animal win. If a large % of you program is a MR Hcp, you are making more and more difficult for the better animal to win.
I'm not talking about 1 race here and there, but a systematic advancement of the weaker against the strongest is affirmative action of the very worst kind. You must remember, when they introduced MR Hcpping, they promised it would less than 20% of the program.
Maiden Handicaps is dinkum the sign of the devil.
Surely you can accept that there should be (at the very least) a minimum level to be attained before you enter the system as a winner.
Even my daughter's pony has to clear 40cm before it can progress onwards. If a horse cannot at least win a maiden race (fairly) at level weights, I despair for our stud book and catalogues.
If you advocate Maiden Hcps, then you are saying that even at the VERY bottom rung of the sport, that a weaker horse can go forward into the system in front of a better horse. Why don't we just give the stakes cheques in reverse order of how they finish and thereby ensure that the worst horses can be taken care of at the expense of the better ones?
To keep figures simple, at present:
-Half of any given crop can win 1 or more races, while the other half will die maidens.
However vile you may consider the race figure system, the thing that I do like about it was that it DID count wins to steer the progess of a career.
I remember that Millard would take a horse through a Maiden, a Novice and then say a Progress. If successful he would try a B Div against older horses and multiple winners. If he won that, he would knew he could have a proper shot at the Guineas.
Every time a horse receiving 10Kg's wins a race, you have LET the inferior animal win. If a large % of you program is a MR Hcp, you are making more and more difficult for the better animal to win.
I'm not talking about 1 race here and there, but a systematic advancement of the weaker against the strongest is affirmative action of the very worst kind. You must remember, when they introduced MR Hcpping, they promised it would less than 20% of the program.
Maiden Handicaps is dinkum the sign of the devil.
Surely you can accept that there should be (at the very least) a minimum level to be attained before you enter the system as a winner.
Even my daughter's pony has to clear 40cm before it can progress onwards. If a horse cannot at least win a maiden race (fairly) at level weights, I despair for our stud book and catalogues.
If you advocate Maiden Hcps, then you are saying that even at the VERY bottom rung of the sport, that a weaker horse can go forward into the system in front of a better horse. Why don't we just give the stakes cheques in reverse order of how they finish and thereby ensure that the worst horses can be taken care of at the expense of the better ones?
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- magiclips
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Re: Re: Handicaps..are they right?
16 years 5 months ago
The very thing that was wrong with the race figure system is, ironically, the aspect that JackD yearns for the most. i.e. That number of races won was the yardstick by which a horse's ability is measured. South Africa must be about the only major racing country in the world where this thoroughly discredited measure is still considered relevant to assessing a horse.
Ability (or merit) has nothing to do with how many races a horse wins. Race figures were performance-based, and didn't how half as much as they should to how good a horse actually is. Otherwise you must take the view that, e.g. all three time winners are essentially equal in ability, irrespective of how many times they have raced, what opposition they have encountered, how far they won by, etc. This is so palpably absurd as to require no further comment, except to say that in the civilised racing world you will be laughed out of school if you dare to embrace such thinking.
Advocating maiden handicaps is not to advocate a bad horse advancing further than a superior animal. Maiden handicaps would be an alternative to, not a replacement for, maiden plates. It is advocating an additional earning opportunity in an era when the sport is losing owners, smaller trainers are going to the wall on a regular basis, and many breeders are faced with no alternative to either cull their stock or bail out altogether. There has never been a worse time than now, since the advent of merit rated handicapping, to advocate a system which makes it harder to earn money. The 36% drop in the average at the Equimark sale the other day is evidence enough of this.
The so-called sanctity of catalogues and the stud book are minor considerations, if they are indeed considerations at all. The UK is the home of the original stud book and (low stakes notwithstanding) is amongst the most prestigious racing and breeding jurisdictions in the world. They have maiden handicaps, and selling plates, and classified stakes, all of which are designed solely as earning opportunities for mediocre animals. This doesn't stop some of the biggest players in the world from breeding and racing in the UK, and it doesn't stop British bloodstock from being much sought after (e.g. as shuttle stallions) the world over. If it's good enough for them, it should be good enough for us. Similarly, those rock bottom $2000 claiming races at obscure tracks in Montana or Kansas don't do a thing to impact negatively on the American thoroughbred. What they do, though, is play an essential function in keeping the show on the road.
Furthermore, the introduction of merit ratings has done nothing to dilute the quality of out bloodstock. Indeed, we would not be able to export most of those horses which carry our flag overseas if there were no MRs to act as some sort of a benchmark, for many jurisdictions set a minimum rating that a horse must have achieved before they will allow its importation. Race figures may have worked all right when SA was cut off from the rest of the world, but they have no more role to play in today's SA than would apartheid.
The only minimum requirement that a horse should achieve in order to enter the system as a winner is that it runs fast enough to win a race. Nobody is ever going to put on a maiden handicap for horses aged six years and older that have never run a place, so there was always be a minimum standard of some sort. Is it not possible that the one we have at present is a bit too high?
Good horses can still progress through the ranks, under our current system. A balanced programme will allow good horses to do so, without having to contest a handicap along the way. This is where it is important to realize that a lack of suitable alternatives to handicaps is a programming issue which is in the hands of our two racing operators. It is not the handicapping division's fault if, say, Gold Circle don't offer enough progress or advance plates in Kwazulu-Natal. The MR system will work well, if the racing operators don't abuse it. Here, we have room for improvement. However, big fields are perceived to equal higher turnover, and handicaps attract bigger fields than plate races (generally), so the operators are loath to stray too far from theit current path.
Nevertheless, this heavy emphasis on handicaps has not prevented good horses from coming through the ranks every year. Bass, Laird, De Kock, Kannemeyer, Woodruff etc. are all still capable of following the Millard example that JackD used. Only in KZN did the operator go overboard in programming handicaps at the expense of plate races, a subject I have written about many times before and which I still feel was partially responsible for the depressing deterioration in the quality of KZN-trained animals. To an extent, this scenario has improved in the last couple of years, but perhaps not quite enough as yet.
However, rather than maiden handicaps or anything else, what I would advocate above all else is the introduction of 2yo handicaps, or "nureseries" as they are called in the UK. Winning an early juvenile race with a precocious type is almost a double-edged sword because it becomes impossible as the season advances for the horse to win against superior rivals at set weights. At a time when every incentive needs to be found to persuade people to own horses, this would make for a very sizeable carrot. If the stakes can't keep up with the rising costs, let us at least find alternative ways of earning a slice of the existing cake. A certain young son of Danehill is siring a herd of precocious types that would be much nicer to own if we had juvenile handicaps, for instance. I'll leave him nameless, but that's no bull...
Ability (or merit) has nothing to do with how many races a horse wins. Race figures were performance-based, and didn't how half as much as they should to how good a horse actually is. Otherwise you must take the view that, e.g. all three time winners are essentially equal in ability, irrespective of how many times they have raced, what opposition they have encountered, how far they won by, etc. This is so palpably absurd as to require no further comment, except to say that in the civilised racing world you will be laughed out of school if you dare to embrace such thinking.
Advocating maiden handicaps is not to advocate a bad horse advancing further than a superior animal. Maiden handicaps would be an alternative to, not a replacement for, maiden plates. It is advocating an additional earning opportunity in an era when the sport is losing owners, smaller trainers are going to the wall on a regular basis, and many breeders are faced with no alternative to either cull their stock or bail out altogether. There has never been a worse time than now, since the advent of merit rated handicapping, to advocate a system which makes it harder to earn money. The 36% drop in the average at the Equimark sale the other day is evidence enough of this.
The so-called sanctity of catalogues and the stud book are minor considerations, if they are indeed considerations at all. The UK is the home of the original stud book and (low stakes notwithstanding) is amongst the most prestigious racing and breeding jurisdictions in the world. They have maiden handicaps, and selling plates, and classified stakes, all of which are designed solely as earning opportunities for mediocre animals. This doesn't stop some of the biggest players in the world from breeding and racing in the UK, and it doesn't stop British bloodstock from being much sought after (e.g. as shuttle stallions) the world over. If it's good enough for them, it should be good enough for us. Similarly, those rock bottom $2000 claiming races at obscure tracks in Montana or Kansas don't do a thing to impact negatively on the American thoroughbred. What they do, though, is play an essential function in keeping the show on the road.
Furthermore, the introduction of merit ratings has done nothing to dilute the quality of out bloodstock. Indeed, we would not be able to export most of those horses which carry our flag overseas if there were no MRs to act as some sort of a benchmark, for many jurisdictions set a minimum rating that a horse must have achieved before they will allow its importation. Race figures may have worked all right when SA was cut off from the rest of the world, but they have no more role to play in today's SA than would apartheid.
The only minimum requirement that a horse should achieve in order to enter the system as a winner is that it runs fast enough to win a race. Nobody is ever going to put on a maiden handicap for horses aged six years and older that have never run a place, so there was always be a minimum standard of some sort. Is it not possible that the one we have at present is a bit too high?
Good horses can still progress through the ranks, under our current system. A balanced programme will allow good horses to do so, without having to contest a handicap along the way. This is where it is important to realize that a lack of suitable alternatives to handicaps is a programming issue which is in the hands of our two racing operators. It is not the handicapping division's fault if, say, Gold Circle don't offer enough progress or advance plates in Kwazulu-Natal. The MR system will work well, if the racing operators don't abuse it. Here, we have room for improvement. However, big fields are perceived to equal higher turnover, and handicaps attract bigger fields than plate races (generally), so the operators are loath to stray too far from theit current path.
Nevertheless, this heavy emphasis on handicaps has not prevented good horses from coming through the ranks every year. Bass, Laird, De Kock, Kannemeyer, Woodruff etc. are all still capable of following the Millard example that JackD used. Only in KZN did the operator go overboard in programming handicaps at the expense of plate races, a subject I have written about many times before and which I still feel was partially responsible for the depressing deterioration in the quality of KZN-trained animals. To an extent, this scenario has improved in the last couple of years, but perhaps not quite enough as yet.
However, rather than maiden handicaps or anything else, what I would advocate above all else is the introduction of 2yo handicaps, or "nureseries" as they are called in the UK. Winning an early juvenile race with a precocious type is almost a double-edged sword because it becomes impossible as the season advances for the horse to win against superior rivals at set weights. At a time when every incentive needs to be found to persuade people to own horses, this would make for a very sizeable carrot. If the stakes can't keep up with the rising costs, let us at least find alternative ways of earning a slice of the existing cake. A certain young son of Danehill is siring a herd of precocious types that would be much nicer to own if we had juvenile handicaps, for instance. I'll leave him nameless, but that's no bull...
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- Frodo
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Re: Re: Handicaps..are they right?
16 years 5 months ago
Well written and argued, Magic.
Imo, there should be a place in the sun for all concerned and the reason why we have so few plated races, is that such a small percentage of horses are considered good enough to run against their rivals at weights set according to the number of wins. I think JD's argument (amongts others) is that we should have more plated races, but surely it is not practical to have 5 plated races on a card (excluding maidens). Even in the days of race figures, the majority of races were 'handicaps' and not novice and graduation plates.
I am in favour of maiden handicaps as long as these will carry a significantly lower (50%?) of normal naiden races.
I also think that 2yo handicaps are long overdue.
Imo, there should be a place in the sun for all concerned and the reason why we have so few plated races, is that such a small percentage of horses are considered good enough to run against their rivals at weights set according to the number of wins. I think JD's argument (amongts others) is that we should have more plated races, but surely it is not practical to have 5 plated races on a card (excluding maidens). Even in the days of race figures, the majority of races were 'handicaps' and not novice and graduation plates.
I am in favour of maiden handicaps as long as these will carry a significantly lower (50%?) of normal naiden races.
I also think that 2yo handicaps are long overdue.
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- Dave Scott
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Re: Re: Handicaps..are they right?
16 years 5 months ago
Enjoying this post guys, plenty education for all parties.
thanks.
thanks.
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- Marc Lingard
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Re: Re: Handicaps..are they right?
16 years 5 months ago
What are the drawbacks of claiming races? Couldn't they be useful? If I recall correctly, Trevor Denman spoke in favour of them in that televised interview but did mention a few problems.
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- Jack Dash
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Re: Re: Handicaps..are they right?
16 years 5 months ago
1. Over the years I have done a few things in racing, but if I had to choose one from the list of breeding, bookmaking, owning or whatever, now it would be punting and handicapping. So that's what I do most these days.
Even though I said "In fact I yearn for the race figure days enormously", I did help install the MR handicapping system and tailored the computer program for head handicapper Mike Wanklin so understanding the differences was essential.**
So while merit handicapping is without any doubt the best tool ever devised to evaluate races, the reason that I see some merit (ha) in the old race figure system is that label "Handicappers" used to describe the class of horses who where not quite top class or "classic", but (especially as 4yo+) they could be competitive at the weights.
2. Imho, handicap racing should exist between entry level and the top level. In 06/07 we had 3800 races. If 50% of them were Maidens that produced 1900 winners. Within! the other 1900 races, we can either try to provide more races that cater for C-B-A divisions, or more for D-E-F divisions. It's the same amount of racing, it's the same amount of stakes budgeted...it's just a decision of what KIND ofr racing you want...MR60- or MR80+. Not absolutely, but MORE of....
In the 'old' days (feel free to correct me) A,B and C division handicaps catered for winners of a few races who were good enough to continue. The idea of providing good stake money to sub-maiden class was an anathema.
On the strength of that racing system, have we build the horses we can now send overseas, and even produce stallions bred here.
Without a doubt (as magic acknowledges) kakistocracy is probably single biggest factor that KZN ended up not being able to put a single entrant into their own July Hcp. A just reward for catering to the lowest common denominator.
PS**
** The Sporting Post generously gave the system which they had researched and developed at their own expense themselves to the handicappers (then employed by the various clubs), and paid to tailor it to the specific requirements of the official handicapper to give them the years it would take get their own.
In complete disregard to the non-partisan and steadfast service to racing over many years, pretty much a labour of love from them in the tiny SA market, HOW the race operators could ever ban this newspaper of tremendous value to racing from their properties, is a disgrace and a proper shame and just highlights the low depths of spite and malice in some racing people. What is it with us racing people, are we just low calibre and cowards with no integrity or decency?
How lucky are we to have people who have dedicated themselves to racing like the Sporting Post, who have never tried to use their paper for a political free lunch?
Even though I said "In fact I yearn for the race figure days enormously", I did help install the MR handicapping system and tailored the computer program for head handicapper Mike Wanklin so understanding the differences was essential.**
So while merit handicapping is without any doubt the best tool ever devised to evaluate races, the reason that I see some merit (ha) in the old race figure system is that label "Handicappers" used to describe the class of horses who where not quite top class or "classic", but (especially as 4yo+) they could be competitive at the weights.
2. Imho, handicap racing should exist between entry level and the top level. In 06/07 we had 3800 races. If 50% of them were Maidens that produced 1900 winners. Within! the other 1900 races, we can either try to provide more races that cater for C-B-A divisions, or more for D-E-F divisions. It's the same amount of racing, it's the same amount of stakes budgeted...it's just a decision of what KIND ofr racing you want...MR60- or MR80+. Not absolutely, but MORE of....
In the 'old' days (feel free to correct me) A,B and C division handicaps catered for winners of a few races who were good enough to continue. The idea of providing good stake money to sub-maiden class was an anathema.
On the strength of that racing system, have we build the horses we can now send overseas, and even produce stallions bred here.
Without a doubt (as magic acknowledges) kakistocracy is probably single biggest factor that KZN ended up not being able to put a single entrant into their own July Hcp. A just reward for catering to the lowest common denominator.
PS**
** The Sporting Post generously gave the system which they had researched and developed at their own expense themselves to the handicappers (then employed by the various clubs), and paid to tailor it to the specific requirements of the official handicapper to give them the years it would take get their own.
In complete disregard to the non-partisan and steadfast service to racing over many years, pretty much a labour of love from them in the tiny SA market, HOW the race operators could ever ban this newspaper of tremendous value to racing from their properties, is a disgrace and a proper shame and just highlights the low depths of spite and malice in some racing people. What is it with us racing people, are we just low calibre and cowards with no integrity or decency?
How lucky are we to have people who have dedicated themselves to racing like the Sporting Post, who have never tried to use their paper for a political free lunch?
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- Dave Scott
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Re: Re: Handicaps..are they right?
16 years 5 months ago
Well said Jack, superb publication, run by a professional dedicated team.
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- magiclips
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Re: Re: Handicaps..are they right?
16 years 5 months ago
The problem in KZN, JackD, is that they took things too far. As I said in an earlier post, there needs to be a balance between handicaps and set weights races, and in KZN they got it wrong. The effects are still being felt today, but to be fair this is not by any means the only reason why "Africa's Racing Capital" has effectively gone down the crapper.
I am all in favour of variety. The more different race types there are, the more earning opportunities and the more betting opportunities for those punters who are prepared to use their noggins and put a bit of work into form study. Who loses out? Nobody, as far as I can see. I have also written before that on the whole I find the SA racing programme repetitive and not inventive enough. There are countless different ways in which weights for a race can be framed. To me, handicaps have to be merit rated or else they are not handicaps, but there is plenty of room for alternatives. That includes claiming races, but these are useless if you get one every three or four weeks. For the concept to work, they need to be much more frequent than that.
I am all in favour of variety. The more different race types there are, the more earning opportunities and the more betting opportunities for those punters who are prepared to use their noggins and put a bit of work into form study. Who loses out? Nobody, as far as I can see. I have also written before that on the whole I find the SA racing programme repetitive and not inventive enough. There are countless different ways in which weights for a race can be framed. To me, handicaps have to be merit rated or else they are not handicaps, but there is plenty of room for alternatives. That includes claiming races, but these are useless if you get one every three or four weeks. For the concept to work, they need to be much more frequent than that.
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