Respect Us Punters, barry!

Sharkie,I can only speak for Blackjack,as,on the odd occasion that I gamble in a casino(seldom) the odds I think average between 2.7% and 3.3% in favour of the house.I think that has changed with shuffle machines,but not sure.
I was bored waiting for the golf and decided to stir it up for a bit of fun,but jokes aside, why should racing be the only "sport"that relies on punters to provide the prize money?
I think you have to compare with other sports that are played for prize money ,rather than pure gambling like roulette or blackjack.(no other form of gambling would ever accept a 25% "rake")
Even poker tournaments are staked by entry fees.

in SA the minimum return to player for a casino game as required by law is 85%. that's a take out capped at 15%, much like the tote is capped at 25%. the big difference between the two is that the tote stiffs the punter for the legal maximum and still complains that it's not enough, while the casino actually takes between 2.7% (roulette) and around 3-5% (slot machines) and rolls in the dough.

that's because a casino is run like a business that knows the punter will spend more if he wins more and has more fun, while racing (despite having some of the country's best business brains in charge) can't find its arse with both hands. mind you, if your head is buried deeply enough in the sand...

the starting point, dear mr irwin and others who hark back to the days of being the only game in town, is to realise that what a punter BETS (tote turnover) is not what he SPENDS. Racing needs to make itself cheaper (which means increase the return to player) so that punters start to see it as worthwhile to spend/lose more overall. racing relies on punters first and foremost for its income and its atmosphere. why oh why doesn't racing in SA look after the punter?

Point 1.

A casino works on the principle that a "punter" will stay till his money is finished. A proven principle. The 15% that greenbook refers to is fairly standard for the industry when it comes to slots as an example. Remember that slots is what the "ordinary" people play as it requires very little skill.

When discussing anything about the tote most people have very little good to say about it, this tread being an example. My questions regarding casinos is to proof that casinos are the "proffesionals" They will do anything to get you there....Internet casinos will for instance pay a US $ 100 referal to a website that link a first time "punter" to them, which "punter" only needs to make an initial deposit of US $ 80. They thus make at least a $ 20-00 loss on this. This means that every Tom, Dick and Harry is trying to get you to a casino. Once there the casino will ensure that you stay till ALL your money is gone. RUTHLESS!!!!!!!!!!! and this is all based on the STUPIDITY and GREED of people.

How is the casino funded and how do they pay their overheads and how do they pay for prizes and big Jackpots, and how do they makes their profits.....TAKE OUT's or RAKES or whatever they want to call it.

When the tote has a take out to fund the racing product then they are blasted for it.

Point 2.

People too often link the take out with stakes. A small percentage of the take out goes to stakes, the biggest part is used to fund the racing product, that we all "use" to some extend. Forget the stakes, let's look at the cost of the racing product which is what Phumelela and GC create, fund and keep going. Bookmakers and the exchanges "steal this product" or latch on to it like parasites and make huge profits without having the cost to fund the product. Of course if you are only a punter, you would not care. You will also not be fair as you are probably worse of at any casino, but they do not have a forum where you can wet your panty. The playing fields between the tote, bookmakers, and exchanges should be level and will be in time to come. They should not be banned or closed down, but must pay their fair share. Many of them will close down when this happens.

Conclusion

Will a casino allow me to set up a couple of slot machines on their premises and run them for my own gain? I will be arrested before the first coin is inserted. Why should racing allow it?

Sharkie,enjoyable debate until "you wet your panty"(sic)Why so personally defensive?
In your "conclusion" who exactly is RACING ?
How are stakes funded in countries that forbid gambling?
If all punters took your advice and gambled at casino's instead,you see that as a solution?

Rob, I get frustrated when people like scarface want to teach somebody like Barry Irwin what racing is about and how it should be run. At the last count I think that the total stakes raced for in a season amount to +- 30% of the price that owners paid for horses at sales each year. Owners are not the "enemy", as without them subsidising racing to the extend that they do, there will be no racing the way we know it. Obviously in a country where there is no gambling owners and the "operators" will fund racing, through other forms of income. Everything in Dubai, as an example is not free.

Secondly I am tired of the fact that the take out by the operators is immediatly seen as stakes, when only a small percentage of it actually is. If we consider that it is firstly used to fund racing then maybe we will start to see the problem.

Racing is a business that belongs to Phumelela and Gold Circle, through their shareholders and in the case of GC it's members. It can and should make a profit like any other business. Makro, Game etc has a standard 40% mark-up, why can the racing operators not have a mark up?

Everybody is forever leaving racing, for this or that reason, but in the end they only leave when the money is finished. I have lots of problems with racing, but the funding of racing, bookmaker and exchange issue, is not one of my problems. The operators have my full support on it. The way things are going we may end up with virtual racing fairly soon. It may be a solution in the long run. I am in the line to buy the first virtual horse, but I wonder which innovative ways trainers and vets will come up with to make money on these virtual horses.

Sharkie, you are losing it.If you dont have a problem with the way racing is run, keep quiet.Stick to casinos where no brain or skill is required.BTW, bi is not the only knowledgable person on racing on this forum.777.

racing can have its takeout,,funded by punters, but then cater for the punter as well as you provide stake money for the owners,,make sure that you look after your paying clients before you worry about shareholders profits,,otherwise we may have to go to the province to find a better solution for racings problems

The current financial model of Horse Racing in SA is not sustainable.

Im sure its clear hense Phum push as a gambling co looking aggressively at other sources of income to fund it.

If Phum stopped dividend policy it would quickly show the shareholders loyalty to SA Horseracing.

If stakes were halved tom morning it would quickly show owners loyalty to horseracing.

If Tellytrack was made a pay channel @ say R450.00 per month it would quickly reflect on tote turnovers.

Racing worldwide needs to discover a monumental paradigm shift in the way the sport is financed or it will eventually dissapear.

i will summerize anarticle published in australia a few months ago as they have the same problems as us with racing.
"little more than 10 years ago most betting on racing was done through a TAB agency or an oncourse bookmaker,now that punting landscape is hardly recognisable.With change comes conflict and with conflict comes uncertainty,most indicators are positive except for the most vital funding.However wagering on the TAB is on decline because of the emergence of corporate bookmaking firms and betting exchanges.In real terms prizemoney has been stagnant for years while the costs to owners feed etc. have risen sharply.Despite fears that corporate bookmakers will kill off racing's revenue stream RVL chief executive Rob Hines predicts the rise of the corporates will add to the marketplace.He said the move to deregulate advertising by wagering operators was designed to remove the protectionist attitude and encourage people to bet on a wide range of products.The whole landscape is changing.Internet betting,phone betting corporate bookmakers,betting exchanges and sportsbetting and the fair Trades Practice Act says they have a right to be involved.We could be protectionist,but we have seen High Court decisions that say we cant.Rather than spend millions in court,we accept that the former monopoly can no longer exist and we need to generate funding to support racing from outside TAB.
Now more than ever it is essential that the entire industry operates with a more collective,innovative and less protectionist approach if we are to succeed and achieve our goals.