How do they decide on eliminations in a handicap ?
- Jack Dash
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Re: Re: How do they decide on eliminations in a handicap ?
15 years 2 months ago
Happily, I can change my mind (from my earlier post above)
On reflection this is what I think of Red Mist's elimination in a hcp...
racingandbreedingsa.blogspot.com/2010/03...nate-discretion.html
"One of the great things about racing is that something will always come up to surprise you. Here’s a situation that is so obvious that I’m shocked it never occurred to me before. Although it apparently hasn’t occurred to the handicapper either so I’m in good company.
On ABC some whiner complained that his horse (with diabolical form) was eliminated from a handicap race while horses with lower ratings ran in his place. I looked up the race www.gallop.co.za/cgi-bin/fgresult?20100309:18:6:1 and the horse (Red Mist) has a rating of (93) and was carded as the 2nd reserve runner and 3 horses in a field of twelve had ratings of 91, 88 and 87.
The rules for eliminations in a handicap race are “7.2.4.1 From the lowest net merit rating upwards.” but if the handicap is a feature race then “At the Handicapper's discretion” would come into effect. As it happens the race was a non black type feature and the handicappers invoked the discretion rule to overrule their own Merit Rating with a “form” consideration. It’s a side issue that I can’t find the definition of a “Feature”.
Now I have to apologize to the ‘whiner’ because he has every right to complain. Merit Ratings are by definition separate from form. If the handicapper uses ‘form’ to override ratings, he admits that his rating is incorrect. A current rating is a measure of expectation, and if he puts an (87) horse in before a (93) using ‘discretionary’ powers, he says loud and clear that he expects that this (93) horse is not competitive with even the lowest rated horse in the race.
It stands to reason then that the handicapper should immediately bring the rating of the (93) horse (he eliminated) to the rating of the lowest horse he put in front of it, in this case (87). Red Mist would have had to carry 56.5kg to Ryan’s A Lion’s 53.5kg and if the handicapper eliminates Red Mist in favour of Ryan’s A Lion, all reason and common sense tells us the rating of the eliminated horse should be set to equal to or lower than the lowest horse that was accepted.
Many trainers have argued ‘form’ when discussing the ratings of their horses with the Handicapper only to be swatted down with a counter argument of how the horse ‘rated’ against its peers and how form is therefore meaningless. The handicapper has argued that ratings (as we use them) is NOT an expression of maximum ability as may be applied elsewhere, but a working handicap figure. This they argue is why our ratings are so fluid from race to race. To see the same handicapper now apply form above their handicap figure is stunning to say the least.
How can Red Mist have an official figure, that does not get him into a race which that figure qualifies him to?
If I were the owner, I would immediately initiate an objection to Red Mist’s rating of (93). Eliminating the horse is an acknowledgement that the horse is not competitive off its rating, and this is an official opinion, in print! It’s a double jeopardy to have the horse rated too high AND not allowed to run off the rating. I would love to see them insist on the 93 when they themselves have just made the case against."
On reflection this is what I think of Red Mist's elimination in a hcp...
racingandbreedingsa.blogspot.com/2010/03...nate-discretion.html
"One of the great things about racing is that something will always come up to surprise you. Here’s a situation that is so obvious that I’m shocked it never occurred to me before. Although it apparently hasn’t occurred to the handicapper either so I’m in good company.
On ABC some whiner complained that his horse (with diabolical form) was eliminated from a handicap race while horses with lower ratings ran in his place. I looked up the race www.gallop.co.za/cgi-bin/fgresult?20100309:18:6:1 and the horse (Red Mist) has a rating of (93) and was carded as the 2nd reserve runner and 3 horses in a field of twelve had ratings of 91, 88 and 87.
The rules for eliminations in a handicap race are “7.2.4.1 From the lowest net merit rating upwards.” but if the handicap is a feature race then “At the Handicapper's discretion” would come into effect. As it happens the race was a non black type feature and the handicappers invoked the discretion rule to overrule their own Merit Rating with a “form” consideration. It’s a side issue that I can’t find the definition of a “Feature”.
Now I have to apologize to the ‘whiner’ because he has every right to complain. Merit Ratings are by definition separate from form. If the handicapper uses ‘form’ to override ratings, he admits that his rating is incorrect. A current rating is a measure of expectation, and if he puts an (87) horse in before a (93) using ‘discretionary’ powers, he says loud and clear that he expects that this (93) horse is not competitive with even the lowest rated horse in the race.
It stands to reason then that the handicapper should immediately bring the rating of the (93) horse (he eliminated) to the rating of the lowest horse he put in front of it, in this case (87). Red Mist would have had to carry 56.5kg to Ryan’s A Lion’s 53.5kg and if the handicapper eliminates Red Mist in favour of Ryan’s A Lion, all reason and common sense tells us the rating of the eliminated horse should be set to equal to or lower than the lowest horse that was accepted.
Many trainers have argued ‘form’ when discussing the ratings of their horses with the Handicapper only to be swatted down with a counter argument of how the horse ‘rated’ against its peers and how form is therefore meaningless. The handicapper has argued that ratings (as we use them) is NOT an expression of maximum ability as may be applied elsewhere, but a working handicap figure. This they argue is why our ratings are so fluid from race to race. To see the same handicapper now apply form above their handicap figure is stunning to say the least.
How can Red Mist have an official figure, that does not get him into a race which that figure qualifies him to?
If I were the owner, I would immediately initiate an objection to Red Mist’s rating of (93). Eliminating the horse is an acknowledgement that the horse is not competitive off its rating, and this is an official opinion, in print! It’s a double jeopardy to have the horse rated too high AND not allowed to run off the rating. I would love to see them insist on the 93 when they themselves have just made the case against."
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- ElvisisKing
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Re: Re: How do they decide on eliminations in a handicap ?
15 years 2 months ago
hello Jack Dash, it appears to me that you have apologised to the " whiner " which I accept. You talk a lot of sence in your reply & I hope the powers that be ( NHRA) take note of what you've said. This is what MR is all about - do you qualify for that race or not ?
I have another issue with an old timer horse - LET'S ROCK N'ROLL before the 2 year rest left the race course as a MR 104 ( Gr 1 winner )
has a rest ( bloody long rest - 2 years ) comes back as a 100 MR ( ONLY ) He runs stone last in his only start after 2 years.
The question is this - how many bad runs must you have before they bring down the MR ?
with such a lengthy rest surely they can use a different rating TO DROP MR after such rests. ( i.e. After a 1 year rest you drop X points. After 2 years you drop X points & so on )
Dont tell me a top 5 y.r. is the same horse 2 years later....... why was he rested for so long ? must have been something wrong.
I have another issue with an old timer horse - LET'S ROCK N'ROLL before the 2 year rest left the race course as a MR 104 ( Gr 1 winner )
has a rest ( bloody long rest - 2 years ) comes back as a 100 MR ( ONLY ) He runs stone last in his only start after 2 years.
The question is this - how many bad runs must you have before they bring down the MR ?
with such a lengthy rest surely they can use a different rating TO DROP MR after such rests. ( i.e. After a 1 year rest you drop X points. After 2 years you drop X points & so on )
Dont tell me a top 5 y.r. is the same horse 2 years later....... why was he rested for so long ? must have been something wrong.
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- Gajima
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Re: Re: How do they decide on eliminations in a handicap ?
15 years 2 months ago
Elvis
Fair Brutus ran this week for the first time in 8 months, off what I believe is a high MR anyway of 102. He was beaten over 11 lengths yet the handicapper says he will keep him on the same level for the time being. It is attitudes like this that drive owners away. It is plain that the horse is not the same one that won the Hampton Handicap over 3 years ago off a lower mark, having run 3 times in the last 12 months.
There is no incentive to keep him in training.
Fair Brutus ran this week for the first time in 8 months, off what I believe is a high MR anyway of 102. He was beaten over 11 lengths yet the handicapper says he will keep him on the same level for the time being. It is attitudes like this that drive owners away. It is plain that the horse is not the same one that won the Hampton Handicap over 3 years ago off a lower mark, having run 3 times in the last 12 months.
There is no incentive to keep him in training.
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- ElvisisKing
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Re: Re: How do they decide on eliminations in a handicap ?
15 years 2 months ago
Gajima, I couldn't agree with you more. when a Joburg horse reaches a MR of 100 odd there ARE VERY FEW SPRINT RACES ( 1000 - 1450m for them.)
when these horses loose form, which they always do it takes forever & a day for their MR to DROP.
It's really more fun to race a maiden horse or a horse in the MR 80 where you may find a race for him/her every week, virtually.
when these horses loose form, which they always do it takes forever & a day for their MR to DROP.
It's really more fun to race a maiden horse or a horse in the MR 80 where you may find a race for him/her every week, virtually.
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