Richard Hughes quits over new five-day ban
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Richard Hughes quits over new five-day ban
13 years 7 months agoPlease Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.
- Bob Brogan
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Re: Re: Richard Hughes quits over new five-day ban
13 years 7 months ago
Well done,i have certainly noticed a few jocks not going for it,time for a sabatical
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Re: Re: Richard Hughes quits over new five-day ban
13 years 7 months ago
The grand national is one thing but these whip rules . Gimme a break !
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- Chris van Buuren
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Re: Re: Richard Hughes quits over new five-day ban
13 years 7 months ago
These idiots force the greatest (in my opinion, or at least one of) jock on the planet to hang up his boots. What a bunch of morons. Worry too much about Greenpeace and Peta and the like to have half a brain which could make half a coherent decision!!!
Happy trails.....sure SA aren't too far behind......
Happy trails.....sure SA aren't too far behind......
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- Barry Irwin
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Re: Re: Richard Hughes quits over new five-day ban
13 years 7 months ago
I once had a university class in anthropology and the most interesting thing I learned is that human beings can be intractable to a point where their very lives are in danger. In particular, there was evidence that clearly showed that certain "civilized" humans, rather than eat and survive on grub worms, chose not to eat them and died. Richard Hughes is a member of this club. Adapt or die. The poor bastard quit. Good riddance to this lot, because unless our game adapts to modern society, it will go the way of the fox hunting clubs. Our sport, in order to survive, must adapt. It is impossible to promote a sport that punishes horses in public. Insiders have a hard time coming to grips with this. But it is insider mentality that is dooming the sport around the world. We better change and fast, before our sport is marginalized the way professional wrestling has been.
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- Jack Dash
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Re: Re: Richard Hughes quits over new five-day ban
13 years 7 months ago
Yuck, now I'm agreeing with Irwin!
Spot on Barry. If racing wants to survive, it has to dump all appearances of cruelty or corruption. Quickly too.
A very large negative perception of racing is that it appears to belong to a bygone era of old money, closed clubs, upper class cruelty and a complete disregard for every one not on the inside. If jockeys or other insiders quit in response to efforts clearly being made for the greater good, irrespective of whether its exactly right or not, we should wish them well on their way in the new world.
Spot on Barry. If racing wants to survive, it has to dump all appearances of cruelty or corruption. Quickly too.
A very large negative perception of racing is that it appears to belong to a bygone era of old money, closed clubs, upper class cruelty and a complete disregard for every one not on the inside. If jockeys or other insiders quit in response to efforts clearly being made for the greater good, irrespective of whether its exactly right or not, we should wish them well on their way in the new world.
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- Barry Irwin
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Re: Re: Richard Hughes quits over new five-day ban
13 years 7 months ago
We had a major event here this week in the U. S., when Kentucky Derby-winning trainer Rick Dutrow of Big Brown fame was suspended for 10 years by the New York racing officials. This is a first in America, where cheating trainers have been gaming the system for years. Dutrow has tons of positives for drugs over the past several years.
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- Dave Scott
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Re: Re: Richard Hughes quits over new five-day ban
13 years 7 months ago
Question?
If your horse is inside the last furlong in the Derby? with the crowd and what is at stake, can a jock actually count how many times he is hitting a horse? whether it be 5/6/7/8 and maybe the one last crack makes the difference of winning or losing and missing the history books.
I dont disagee that we need to get our act together, but maybe a softer whip or no whip would be a better solution.
IMO the rule is "stupid" and agree with Hughes.
If your horse is inside the last furlong in the Derby? with the crowd and what is at stake, can a jock actually count how many times he is hitting a horse? whether it be 5/6/7/8 and maybe the one last crack makes the difference of winning or losing and missing the history books.
I dont disagee that we need to get our act together, but maybe a softer whip or no whip would be a better solution.
IMO the rule is "stupid" and agree with Hughes.
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- magiclips
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Re: Re: Richard Hughes quits over new five-day ban
13 years 7 months ago
Where do you draw the line? If you say that a horse needs to be hit eight times to win the Derby then you might as well say that it needs to be hit 28 times. Somewhere there has to be a limit. The sport is indeed labouring under a very unfavourable public perception that it is cruel to animals, and that animals are being mistreated for no reason other than sheer greed, Whether we agree with this or not, it is a widely growing perception, and racing needs to come to grips with it. The Lester Piggott style of riding may have been fine in another era, but like it or not it would cause a stink today. Racing cannot survive in a cocoon, it has no choice but to try and accomodate changing feelings about what animals may or may not be subjected to in the name of leisure.
Sorry, but the likes of Hughes have to get with the programme or go and sweep the roads.
Sorry, but the likes of Hughes have to get with the programme or go and sweep the roads.
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- Garrick
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Re: Re: Richard Hughes quits over new five-day ban
13 years 7 months ago
Good to see sense prevailing on this thread!
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- wonbyamile
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Re: Re: Richard Hughes quits over new five-day ban
13 years 7 months ago
of the above posters who is or has been a jockey?
what are the rules regarding whip abuse in South Africa?
what are the rules regarding whip abuse in South Africa?
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- zsuzsanna04
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Re: Re: Richard Hughes quits over new five-day ban
13 years 7 months ago
I think one has to examine why people are arguing for the whip. The only argument I can see that holds any water is for safety reasons and as a rudimentary steering device (although I'm not convinced by the latter). But if the argument is not based on safety, then I'd quite like an explanation as to why whips are so vital ?
There are some interesting theories on the use of the whip, increasingly being backed up by science. A gentleman called Dr Paul McGreevy conducted a recent study which showed that horses that are whipped actually have less chance of winning than those that are not. Which, considering we're all interested in horses that win races, should be of interest to the racing community.
Dr McGreevy is a behavioural scientist who conducts studies in learning theory and he hypothesizes that the way whips are used in racing actually teaches horses to run slower, rather than encouraging them to run faster.
And it does make sense - I find it quite hard to concentrate or focus when I'm uncomfortable or in pain. As flight animals, I can't see horses functioning any differently. Particularly when you add in the element of uncertainty. If they are not quite sure when or where the next crack might come from, it's natural to expect the animal to brace or tense (which would cause a shorter, stilted stride and loss of speed). One can see evidence (particularly with juveniles) who can actually veer quite dramatically away from a whip. That doesn't strike me as being particularly safe.
Go and study exactly how little actual contact a jockey has with a horse on the race track. Their feet extend a little way down either side of the back and that's about it. They are so high above the horse that their knees are in the air - there's no grip there - the stirrups are merely two pedals to balance on. The third balance point is the bridge of the reins across the neck - that's it. It's an exceptionally tricky and precarious position to be in. Having to relinquish the grip on the reins to brandish a whip seems a bit risky to me.
So I'm not entirely convinced by the safety argument.
Monty Roberts is very outspoken against the use of the whip and I can't say I particularly disagree. In theory, we breed thoroughbred horses to want to race and compete, and certainly once they've been trained, they do seem to have an innate desire to run. Anyone who has taken on a retired race horse will know that that desire to run stays with them and they really do seem to enjoy stretching out and going as fast as they can.
If you had to remove the whips from every single jockey, you would still have a winner, a second, third, fourth place etc. But the horses out at the front would be the ones having the most fun and the ones most wanting to pass the post first. And whether it's given credit or not, temperament does play a role in any competitive sport. You can have the best and most efficient physiology, but if you don't have the discipline or will to train, endure and persevere then you have no real heart and you're never going to be a serious contender.
If our race tracks are our testing grounds and we want to perpetuate the fastest, best and most courageous individuals, then doesn't it make sense to select for horses that naturally WANT to run and compete and give their all, rather than horses who will only give their best under duress ? So doesn't it make sense that we should be selecting for the sort of horses who are not only naturally physically talented, but that additional competitive mental edge. Then we'd be selecting for something that makes sense - the will to run.
Scotia - if you're in the last furlong in the Derby, I think the imperative should be on the best horse to win - not the jockey with the heaviest hand.
As a rather random example, there's a bit of a fad for Norwegian Fjord ponies in Europe and people go out and round them up to break in and sell on as riding horses. I'm afraid my source has been lost in the recesses of my brain somewhere, but the story goes that he went along to help one year and commented on how easily these relatively feral, untouched horses seemed to load onto the trucks. One of the locals said yes, we breed them that way. The ones that are difficult or less tractable are not considered desirable, so they are removed from the breeding herd. The result ? A solid, dependable, easy-tempered breed which (apparently - I've never worked with Fjord ponies) loads easily. Seems a no-brainer really.
The best argument for the use of the whip that I've heard is from the jump racing fraternity who insist that they use it for steering and keeping a horse straight going into a fence. Considering the size of the fences they face, I do have some sympathy. It's a dangerous sport and one needs to do everything possible to keep horses and jockeys safe. Ensuring that they head into a fence straight on probably qualifies.
However, I've ridden since I was two bricks and a ticky high and I've never ever relied on a whip to steer a horse. I've been riding somewhere in the region of 33 years now and I still don't (in fact, I seldom ride with a whip). You have a piece of steel in the mouth called a bit with a pair of reins attached and that's your (crude) steering wheel. If you progress to any sort of riding where you actually keep your behind in the saddle for any length of time, you can then start using your legs and seat for steering as well, but these are not the sort of techniques that jockeys can employ on a track.
There are international rules governing the type of whips jockeys are allowed to use and certainly the ones in use in South Africa (Pro-Cush) are very soft and padded and are noisy rather than painful. But the point is that at the end of the day, the whip thing is all about public perception. The general public is not particularly knowledgeable about horses and the perception is that horses are being whipped. You can argue till you're blue in the face that the whip doesn't hurt or the rider is merely 'showing' the horse the whip and waving it up and down rather than making contact, but a walk-in non-horse person is not going to understand that (go stand by the finish post sometime and listen and you'll understand why). We are constantly hearing how much we're struggling and how difficult it is to get new people onto the track. If there is anything we can do to change our image and encourage people to give us a go, shouldn't we be considering it ??
It's not as big a deal as everyone seems to be making out - some of the Scandinavian countries already don't allow whips and they seem to be managing just fine ?
There are some interesting theories on the use of the whip, increasingly being backed up by science. A gentleman called Dr Paul McGreevy conducted a recent study which showed that horses that are whipped actually have less chance of winning than those that are not. Which, considering we're all interested in horses that win races, should be of interest to the racing community.
Dr McGreevy is a behavioural scientist who conducts studies in learning theory and he hypothesizes that the way whips are used in racing actually teaches horses to run slower, rather than encouraging them to run faster.
And it does make sense - I find it quite hard to concentrate or focus when I'm uncomfortable or in pain. As flight animals, I can't see horses functioning any differently. Particularly when you add in the element of uncertainty. If they are not quite sure when or where the next crack might come from, it's natural to expect the animal to brace or tense (which would cause a shorter, stilted stride and loss of speed). One can see evidence (particularly with juveniles) who can actually veer quite dramatically away from a whip. That doesn't strike me as being particularly safe.
Go and study exactly how little actual contact a jockey has with a horse on the race track. Their feet extend a little way down either side of the back and that's about it. They are so high above the horse that their knees are in the air - there's no grip there - the stirrups are merely two pedals to balance on. The third balance point is the bridge of the reins across the neck - that's it. It's an exceptionally tricky and precarious position to be in. Having to relinquish the grip on the reins to brandish a whip seems a bit risky to me.
So I'm not entirely convinced by the safety argument.
Monty Roberts is very outspoken against the use of the whip and I can't say I particularly disagree. In theory, we breed thoroughbred horses to want to race and compete, and certainly once they've been trained, they do seem to have an innate desire to run. Anyone who has taken on a retired race horse will know that that desire to run stays with them and they really do seem to enjoy stretching out and going as fast as they can.
If you had to remove the whips from every single jockey, you would still have a winner, a second, third, fourth place etc. But the horses out at the front would be the ones having the most fun and the ones most wanting to pass the post first. And whether it's given credit or not, temperament does play a role in any competitive sport. You can have the best and most efficient physiology, but if you don't have the discipline or will to train, endure and persevere then you have no real heart and you're never going to be a serious contender.
If our race tracks are our testing grounds and we want to perpetuate the fastest, best and most courageous individuals, then doesn't it make sense to select for horses that naturally WANT to run and compete and give their all, rather than horses who will only give their best under duress ? So doesn't it make sense that we should be selecting for the sort of horses who are not only naturally physically talented, but that additional competitive mental edge. Then we'd be selecting for something that makes sense - the will to run.
Scotia - if you're in the last furlong in the Derby, I think the imperative should be on the best horse to win - not the jockey with the heaviest hand.
As a rather random example, there's a bit of a fad for Norwegian Fjord ponies in Europe and people go out and round them up to break in and sell on as riding horses. I'm afraid my source has been lost in the recesses of my brain somewhere, but the story goes that he went along to help one year and commented on how easily these relatively feral, untouched horses seemed to load onto the trucks. One of the locals said yes, we breed them that way. The ones that are difficult or less tractable are not considered desirable, so they are removed from the breeding herd. The result ? A solid, dependable, easy-tempered breed which (apparently - I've never worked with Fjord ponies) loads easily. Seems a no-brainer really.
The best argument for the use of the whip that I've heard is from the jump racing fraternity who insist that they use it for steering and keeping a horse straight going into a fence. Considering the size of the fences they face, I do have some sympathy. It's a dangerous sport and one needs to do everything possible to keep horses and jockeys safe. Ensuring that they head into a fence straight on probably qualifies.
However, I've ridden since I was two bricks and a ticky high and I've never ever relied on a whip to steer a horse. I've been riding somewhere in the region of 33 years now and I still don't (in fact, I seldom ride with a whip). You have a piece of steel in the mouth called a bit with a pair of reins attached and that's your (crude) steering wheel. If you progress to any sort of riding where you actually keep your behind in the saddle for any length of time, you can then start using your legs and seat for steering as well, but these are not the sort of techniques that jockeys can employ on a track.
There are international rules governing the type of whips jockeys are allowed to use and certainly the ones in use in South Africa (Pro-Cush) are very soft and padded and are noisy rather than painful. But the point is that at the end of the day, the whip thing is all about public perception. The general public is not particularly knowledgeable about horses and the perception is that horses are being whipped. You can argue till you're blue in the face that the whip doesn't hurt or the rider is merely 'showing' the horse the whip and waving it up and down rather than making contact, but a walk-in non-horse person is not going to understand that (go stand by the finish post sometime and listen and you'll understand why). We are constantly hearing how much we're struggling and how difficult it is to get new people onto the track. If there is anything we can do to change our image and encourage people to give us a go, shouldn't we be considering it ??
It's not as big a deal as everyone seems to be making out - some of the Scandinavian countries already don't allow whips and they seem to be managing just fine ?
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