If The Tote Was A Supermarket........

rob faux Wrote:

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> Edge Wrote:
>

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>

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> > Most likely state funding, they're pretty
> wealthy
> > over there!
> >
> > Are you suggesting that local racing is not
> > dependent on the tote for funding?
>
> Of course its dependant on the tote for
> funding..............the question is ....should it
> be?............is that a sustainable or "best"
> model........................trends suggest not!
>
> If the Tote closed ,bookmakers would adapt in a
> flash and a blur.

The Tote must be one of the, if not the, most sophisticated computer systems in the country - the bookmakers would battle to replicate it, especially considering they will go from having one for free to having to spend millions to create one.

rob faux Wrote:

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> Edge Wrote:
>

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>

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> > Most likely state funding, they're pretty
> wealthy
> > over there!
> >
> > Are you suggesting that local racing is not
> > dependent on the tote for funding?
>
> Of course its dependant on the tote for
> funding..............the question is ....should it
> be?............is that a sustainable or "best"
> model........................trends suggest not!
>
> If the Tote closed ,bookmakers would adapt in a
> flash and a blur.


No argument from me, but I'm talking about the here and now, and the time it takes to adapt could mean the death of racing in the meantime.

Tipster Wrote:

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> rob faux Wrote:
>

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>

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> > Edge Wrote:
> >
>

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>
> >

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> > > Most likely state funding, they're pretty
> > wealthy
> > > over there!
> > >
> > > Are you suggesting that local racing is not
> > > dependent on the tote for funding?
> >
> > Of course its dependant on the tote for
> > funding..............the question is ....should
> it
> > be?............is that a sustainable or "best"
> > model........................trends suggest
> not!
> >
> > If the Tote closed ,bookmakers would adapt in a
> > flash and a blur.
>
> The Tote must be one of the, if not the, most
> sophisticated computer systems in the country -
> the bookmakers would battle to replicate it,
> especially considering they will go from having
> one for free to having to spend millions to create
> one.


The system is American and would be available to anyone prepared to pay for it
And the Saftote system does not provide a more stable or efficient service than the bookmakers anyway............although it probably could, if better managed,of course!

rob faux Wrote:

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> Tipster Wrote:
>

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>

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> > The Tote must be one of the, if not the, most
> > sophisticated computer systems in the country -
> > the bookmakers would battle to replicate it,
> > especially considering they will go from having
> > one for free to having to spend millions to
> create
> > one.
>
>
> The system is American and would be available to
> anyone prepared to pay for it
> And the Saftote system does not provide a more
> stable or efficient service than the bookmakers
> anyway............although it probably could, if
> better managed,of course!

They should have got a big discount as much of the hardware like tote terminals were 2nd hand.....The Amtote systems were available from Scientific Games USA.....with further USA race course closures a lot more of these systems are available to buy on the open market....:

Muhtiman Wrote:

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> rob faux Wrote:
>

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>

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> > Tipster Wrote:
> >
>

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>
> >

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> > > The Tote must be one of the, if not the, most
> > > sophisticated computer systems in the country
> -
> > > the bookmakers would battle to replicate it,
> > > especially considering they will go from
> having
> > > one for free to having to spend millions to
> > create
> > > one.
> >
> >
> > The system is American and would be available
> to
> > anyone prepared to pay for it
> > And the Saftote system does not provide a more
> > stable or efficient service than the bookmakers
> > anyway............although it probably could,
> if
> > better managed,of course!
>
> They should have got a big discount as much of the
> hardware like tote terminals were 2nd hand.....The
> Amtote systems were available from Scientific
> Games USA.....with further USA race course
> closures a lot more of these systems are available
> to buy on the open market....:

Ok could you do the comms for the bookies, should be a piece of cake.

Tipster Wrote:

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> Muhtiman Wrote:
>

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>

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> > rob faux Wrote:
> >
>

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>
> >

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> > > Tipster Wrote:
> > >
> >
>

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>
> >
> > >

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> > > > The Tote must be one of the, if not the,
> most
> > > > sophisticated computer systems in the
> country
> > -
> > > > the bookmakers would battle to replicate
> it,
> > > > especially considering they will go from
> > having
> > > > one for free to having to spend millions to
> > > create
> > > > one.
> > >
> > >
> > > The system is American and would be available
> > to
> > > anyone prepared to pay for it
> > > And the Saftote system does not provide a
> more
> > > stable or efficient service than the
> bookmakers
> > > anyway............although it probably could,
> > if
> > > better managed,of course!
> >
> > They should have got a big discount as much of
> the
> > hardware like tote terminals were 2nd
> hand.....The
> > Amtote systems were available from Scientific
> > Games USA.....with further USA race course
> > closures a lot more of these systems are
> available
> > to buy on the open market....:
>
> Ok could you do the comms for the bookies, should
> be a piece of cake.

I'm starting to understand why you regard basic understanding as "genius"...................it's a question of relativity!........<

This is a Must for many of the above posters....and of course Titch................taken from Phumelela web site....


Phumelela: Bet TAB/Back Racing

It’s often said that horseracing in South Africa would thrive without fixed-odds betting and an analysis of how much more bets placed on the tote contribute to the sport, as opposed to fixed-odds bets with bookmakers, shows why. To cut a long story short, prize money for races in Phumelela regions would increase dramatically if the money currently wagered with fixed-odds operators was bet on the tote instead!

Put another way, if the money currently wagered on the tote was bet with fixed-odds operators, horseracing would have to close its doors.

Fixed-odds betting has an obvious appeal for horseplayers in instances in which a fixed price is obtained about a runner that then shortens significantly in the betting. By and large, however, tote payouts compare more than favourably with starting-price returns from fixed-odds bets and the bottom line is that every rand bet with a bookmaker instead of the tote hits owners where it hurts – in their pockets!

Every R100 bet on the tote in Phumelela regions yields R20 on average for horseracing, of which about R6 goes directly into stakes in terms of an agreement between Phumelela and the Racing Association, which represents owners in Phumelela territory.

By comparison a R100 fixed-odds bet with a bookmaker yields R2.70 for horseracing. This assumes a 10% profit for fixed-odds operators with them retaining R10 of every R100 wagered with them. Of the assumed R90 left over, R84.60 is returned to horseplayers with R2.70 to horseracing and R2.70 for provincial taxation.

Let’s look at the post-race distribution of the money from a R100 bet on the tote in Phumelela regions:

Returned to punters: R76.00
Provincial tax (average rate): R 2.00
Vat: R 2.80
Stakes: R 6.00
Phumelela: R13.20


Of the R13.20 accruing to Phumelela, only some 4% (50c) translates into bottom-line profit for the company. This is because of the costs of maintaining racing facilities, conducting race meetings and operating a tote network. These expenses collectively amount to R12.70 of the R13.20 accruing to Phumelela from every R100 bet on the tote.

The breakdown of the R13.20 is as follows:

Staging race meeting: R 3.50
Betting operations: R 6.00
Head office expenses: R 1.70
Product Royalties: R 1.50
Profit: R 0.50



A variety of expenses are incurred staging a race meeting. These range from maintaining a database for the dissemination of information about runners to punters (without which minimal betting would take place) and the maintenance of training centres, racetracks and racecourse facilities to the transport of horses to and from race meetings, marketing, security and contributions to the National Horseracing Authority to enable them to regulate the sport and ensure that races are run according to the rules.

Betting operations’ costs include capital and maintenance expenditure for the computerised tote betting system, the rental, maintenance and operation of the network of TAB branches, telephone betting centres and an online betting site, as well as commissions to TAB agencies.

It is estimated that some R7 billion is bet on horseracing nationally every year with R2.8 billion being wagered on the tote in Phumelela regions in 07-08. This yields some R560 million for horseracing of which R160 million flows into stakes at Phumelela racecourses.

Assuming that fixed-odds betting turnover in Phumelela territory is R1.4 billion (50% of the tote betting turnover), it’s easy to calculate what would happen if that money was wagered on the tote instead. Horseracing would get some R280 million annually, instead of the R38 million it receives from fixed-odds betting currently, and stakes at Phumelela racecourses would rocket by some R80 million- a 50% increase!

What is even more damaging for horseracing currently is that many bookmakers are laying the “open bet”. Put simply, a punter takes a tote bet with a bookmaker, say a Swinger or a Trifecta. The bookmaker does not place the bet on the tote, but holds the money and pays the punter the tote dividend if the bet wins. The odds are not fixed at the time the bet is struck, hence the term “open bet”.

Given the average return of R76 for every R100 wagered on the tote, a bookmaker retains R24 of every R100 in open bets. Of the R76 left over, R71.44 is returned to punters with R2.28 for provincial tax and R2.28 to horseracing, which would get R17.72 more if the R100 had been wagered on the tote.

The message is clear – owners seeking higher prize money and those who love the sport need to think twice before betting fixed odds or taking open bets with fixed-odds operators.

you see to me that reflects there arrogance, all about the owner (stakes) but nothing for the punter...

gregbucks Wrote:

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> you see to me that reflects there arrogance, all
> about the owner (stakes) but nothing for the
> punter...

Yeah ,no bias in an article on a "P" web site.............lol

I will tell you that I have never seen an owner have a reasonable strike on their horse on the tote...........the odd R200 each way ,but not a real bet!...............they are all on the books!!!!

rob faux Wrote:

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> Tipster Wrote:
>

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>

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> > Muhtiman Wrote:
> >
>

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>
> >

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> > > rob faux Wrote:
> > >
> >
>

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>
> >
> > >

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> > > > Tipster Wrote:
> > > >
> > >
> >
>

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>
> >
> > >
> > > >

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> > > > > The Tote must be one of the, if not the,
> > most
> > > > > sophisticated computer systems in the
> > country
> > > -
> > > > > the bookmakers would battle to replicate
> > it,
> > > > > especially considering they will go from
> > > having
> > > > > one for free to having to spend millions
> to
> > > > create
> > > > > one.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > The system is American and would be
> available
> > > to
> > > > anyone prepared to pay for it
> > > > And the Saftote system does not provide a
> > more
> > > > stable or efficient service than the
> > bookmakers
> > > > anyway............although it probably
> could,
> > > if
> > > > better managed,of course!
> > >
> > > They should have got a big discount as much
> of
> > the
> > > hardware like tote terminals were 2nd
> > hand.....The
> > > Amtote systems were available from Scientific
> > > Games USA.....with further USA race course
> > > closures a lot more of these systems are
> > available
> > > to buy on the open market....:
> >
> > Ok could you do the comms for the bookies,
> should
> > be a piece of cake.
>
> I'm starting to understand why you regard basic
> understanding as "genius"...................it's a
> question of relativity!........<

The adage "a little knowledge is dangerous" doesn't apply to you then?

gregbucks Wrote:

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> you see to me that reflects there arrogance, all
> about the owner (stakes) but nothing for the
> punter...

Correct. The reply to "stakes could be much higher" should be now that given the much greater turnover in the Pick 6 now that couplings are out and massive overseas betting syndicates play and receive rebates, that the takeout should go to 20% to give the ordinary South African player a fairer chance and make the tote more competitive and more attractive and grow even more.

And of course we only have P's word that stakes would increase as thecadditional income into a lsted company is of course....discretionary spend and may well just be increased dividends to shareholders.
Also by working smarter, more efficiently, better IT systems and less bureaucracy...the margins can be improved so that the 50c per R13.20 can become 55c. That is 10% to the bottom line.
Bottom line though, I would prefer no open bets with bookmakers as I believe the pools would be much bigger....BUT for the record I take 90% of my 'tote' type bets with the bookmakers. Why is this?? I is a normal human being who goes where it is most convenuent, good service, easy to use facilities and prompt settlement.