new m. ratings for top 5 finishers in the guineas

pirates wrote: if act of war ran in a handicap in December over 1600 he would be a net 105 after 12 pounds gets taken off for wfa allowance...captain America is a net 105 so they would meet at levels who would you back?legislate is a net 117 so would give aow a full 6kg in a handicap over a mile so who would you back?

Pirates ,if you look at the history of Captain America ,that rating (@best of 106) was just as silly as Kingvoldt is now, don't you think? completely wrong line horse/s used.

we look to have a few good horses and a few very good horses imo

The "Good horses" like KingVolt , Harrys Son etc will always get close to the Very good horses( Act Of War, Legislste etc) usually because of the way the very good horses are ridden

Bob Brogan wrote: we look to have a few good horses and a few very good horses imo

The "Good horses" like KingVolt , Harrys Son etc will always get close to the Very good horses( Act Of War, Legislste etc) usually because of the way the very good horses are ridden

Amen!

Bob Brogan wrote: we look to have a few good horses and a few very good horses imo

The "Good horses" like KingVolt , Harrys Son etc will always get close to the Very good horses( Act Of War, Legislste etc) usually because of the way the very good horses are ridden

Very much so Bob ............that's why identifying the "line" is so vital (and difficult) sometimes.

Magi wrote: How tbese MR's can be allocated to reflect ability when only assessed by only racing against their peers is beyond me. If I get a handicap rating equal to that of Gerry Baker (current Springbok bowls player) for competing only in my small club ...does that make me as good as him?? Even if I win all my games by many shots?

That is a good analogy ..... When a horse establishes a high strike rate of wins , it seems to be naturally assumed the horse is improving with every win - it is not uncommon for young horses to win 3 to 4 races, all at very similar ratings , and they then often get rated way above ability and spend a long time trying to achieve a competitive rating!

One of the most educative threads ever posted on ABC - good debate

pirates wrote:

Titch wrote: So Zambezi River beats Coniston (a 1 time winner) a short head and gets 11 points for it, Coniston on the other hand beats multiple winners, ML Jet, Charles Lynton and Balance Sheet hands down and gets off scot free...The other 1 time winner Imperil Gold went into the race rated 88 2KG's inferior to Coniston and emerges from it still a 1 time winner but now 5KG's Superior in the ratings after beating Coniston by under a length...You are right Pirates, gotta love this system

titch 2 things firstly the restrictions were put in place by your heroes NOT BY THE 3 handicapers and secondly stop sounding like certain tellytrack presenters who believe that how many races a horse wins is the true reflection of a horses ability

Im not having a go at the Handicappers it's the system being used that needs to be readdressed...The fact is that as things stand an opinion can make or break a horses career and as this thread has shown that is a dangerous and often wrong way to go...

On the face of it I agree that the ratings are too high and that is as a result of Harry's Son being used as the line horse - what would of course 'prove' the ratings one way or the other, is IF one of these 3 yr olds compete against their elders (preferably in a handicap) - even a race like the Queens Plate could go some way to settle the debate - but I doubt that any of the 3yr olds will run in the QP - so the argument is a long way from being settled one way or the other :huh:

Beckedorf MR105 due to its run to Guiness (a ridiculous MR114) in the Gold Medallion was rated 12lbs clear of Asstar (MR101) and Harry Lime (MR100) and 17lbs clear of Generalissimo (MR96) and today ran behind all of them!!!
The Race was won by Varlo a MR87 who met Beckedorf at level weights and beat him by 5L+...
surely even the most defiant supporters of the handicapping system as it stands can see the flaws that continue to highlight the urgent need for change???

Titch wrote: Beckedorf MR105 due to its run to Guiness (a ridiculous MR114) in the Gold Medallion was rated 12lbs clear of Asstar (MR101) and Harry Lime (MR100) and 17lbs clear of Generalissimo (MR96) and today ran behind all of them!!!
The Race was won by Varlo a MR87 who met Beckedorf at level weights and beat him by 5L+...
surely even the most defiant supporters of the handicapping system as it stands can see the flaws that continue to be exposed???

Titch ,I agree that the system has issues ,but let us not overlook that it is also dependant on all runs being "on merit" - unless the handicappers are supported by the regulators in this regard, it is just a pointless system!
The system is wide open to manipulation and therefore it is ..........

rob faux wrote:

Titch wrote: Beckedorf MR105 due to its run to Guiness (a ridiculous MR114) in the Gold Medallion was rated 12lbs clear of Asstar (MR101) and Harry Lime (MR100) and 17lbs clear of Generalissimo (MR96) and today ran behind all of them!!!
The Race was won by Varlo a MR87 who met Beckedorf at level weights and beat him by 5L+...
surely even the most defiant supporters of the handicapping system as it stands can see the flaws that continue to be exposed???

Titch ,I agree that the system has issues ,but let us not overlook that it is also dependant on all runs being "on merit" - unless the handicappers are supported by the regulators in this regard, it is just a pointless system!
The system is wide open to manipulation and therefore it is ..........

1600m or 1000m ?

Bob Brogan wrote:

rob faux wrote:

Titch wrote: Beckedorf MR105 due to its run to Guiness (a ridiculous MR114) in the Gold Medallion was rated 12lbs clear of Asstar (MR101) and Harry Lime (MR100) and 17lbs clear of Generalissimo (MR96) and today ran behind all of them!!!
The Race was won by Varlo a MR87 who met Beckedorf at level weights and beat him by 5L+...
surely even the most defiant supporters of the handicapping system as it stands can see the flaws that continue to be exposed???

Titch ,I agree that the system has issues ,but let us not overlook that it is also dependant on all runs being "on merit" - unless the handicappers are supported by the regulators in this regard, it is just a pointless system!
The system is wide open to manipulation and therefore it is ..........

1600m or 1000m ?

The race Titch mentions is also a sprint .........The Gold Medallion at Pmb won by Guiness.

One ot the biggest problems with the MR system is the first rating is based on insufficient data,so reducing ratings is inevitable although theoretically wrong(why is ability lost????)
Maybe a compromise between the RF system and MR. would work!
All maidens have same rating as in the old days ,and all winners must compete in conditions races at old race figure ratings level until 7 runs under the belt,thereafter a MR is calculated and can only be reduced in the event of obvious error!!!

Will lead to better horses at least getting a chance to rise above the average, getting a few extra wins at plate level,and MR's should be more accurate.
Obviously connections can insist on an earlier MR to compete in Hcps, but then run the risk of overrating,and maybe a long way back.