Durban July Sweepstakes example on totes takeout

dashing wrote: am not too clued up but from what am reading if the tote dosent have a takeout racing is over so taking exotics with bookies is not the long term solution....all that you highlited send to phum.

You are correct - The stakes come from the takeout and The Racing trust is a major shareholder in Phum

does the 30 odd percent takeout from the soccer pools also go to fund racing or does that just go to the shareholders and salaries for all the executives who are coining it working for phum and coming up with timebomb ideas to increase profits?

winzip wrote: does the 30 odd percent takeout from the soccer pools also go to fund racing or does that just go to the shareholders and salaries for all the executives who are coining it working for phum and coming up with timebomb ideas to increase profits?

I asked the same question TWICE

the pro tote guys can't seem to reply

blinkers

Hi all ..Al perhaps I should answer the question on the thread "why hasn't pools grown"
The question is the 25%or 30% takeout?
I may shock some and say that in today's times the 25% is not near enough to run the show.
I know of tote owners who are struggling to keep up with their 6% commission...some even place 20000 places on a 1/10 shot to run a place and take a chance so as to keep afloat.
10 years ago pools were the same as of today and yet the 25% take out that was good enough then is no where near enough just with natural inflation of rent and salary.
So when people say racing is on its death row with this model and principles...Are they wrong?
Natural progression without even inept management will kill the goose, add to this the don't Care attitude of the bosses against their patrons and it exacerbates the inevitable.
What's the solution:
Well there are a few...
Increase the bet unit
Increase the service
Increase the turnover (easier said than done)
But here's the solution....and this is say without reservation...if anybody truly loves racing they will never take a bet with a bookmaker...and here I'm am not talking about mismanagement,service,value etc....
Operators then need to come to the party and lower the takeout..
Right now it's not about the number...it's about the base that the takeout is worked out on.
25%of a million rand pool is a lot worse than 15 % of a 3 million pool...so it's not the number..it's the base that's most important
I would hazard a guess and say that if bookmakers didn't offer the open bet...the p6 pool alone in the whole country would be 3 times more at the least.
Now the lure with that pool and add on carryovers..now we talking lotto pools...hence the interest of new money seeking the big payday.
Right now the smart money is going to bookies and the mug money is making the pool.
But like someone said on one of the other posts..we as punters need to have a platform to voice our concerns and take the bull by the horns and be heard.

Rob foux and I and many others cannot understand how on earth that the tote cannot win the case that the pool is an intellectual property of the tote and the tote alone , and no dividend can ever be used by bookies to determine a payout...what bookies can do however is multiply the starting price or fixed price at the time to form that into a multiple and declare a fixed dividend of their own..and who knows it might be more ..it might be less than than the of tote payout....but that's immaterial...but they will not have a carryover to lure a punter into a p6..

What amazes me....if this was my business I would never allow it to have reached this stage. And sometimes I think that if we love this game so much we have to rise above the mediocrity and take a stance and this may be even to boycott the tote altogether at once...

African betting clan is such a powerful media tool ..it's just a matter of using social media

sucker the solution is quite simple for the operators,they have to lower the takeout for win and place bets to make the bet more attractive to the punters.by doing this they will attract more bets from punters on the tote and also get punters back from the bookies.advertise this fact to punters and in time the pools will grow and punters can then see value in betting on the tote.you have to sacrifice in the short term,but the long term aim is give the punters confidence in the tote system,cut out all the shady payouts after the race has been run and be transparent .that will be a start and in time you will reap the benefits, but unfortunately the mob who are currently running the game are too short sighted or stupid to see the light.the band is playing while the ship is sinking comes to mind with the bright sparks currently running the game.

Sucker, your base argument is spot on as it is the lack of growth in our pools that is causing the biggest problem.

As you have all highlighted there are many reasons why the tote is losing customers but as the tote survives on takeout cutting the percentage is not an option in a static or declining pool as bookmakers will still be able to offer the open bet without any direct cost to them.

I am not against bookmakers or only pro tote as the more market makers there are the better in my view but it's about returning something to the sport to ensure its future and the future of all stakeholders.

I also have doubts about whether any extra turnover and take out for the operator will find it's way back to racing or would just prop up the profit pool.

Racing needs a solution that includes all the stakeholders and a specific agreement about how the sport should benefit.

With respect - you are all mostly right with regard to this topic. But younger posters may be unaware of certain developments from the past & how they eventually played out :

Firstly - allow me to bore you by repeating one of my betting mantras : PUNTERS ACT IN THEIR OWN INTERESTS. In the hope/expectation of making money.

It follows, therefore, that as soon as a punter is shrewd enough to figure out what works best for him/her then that is the route that will be followed.

Consequently, and with no disrespect to the Tote, you would need to be brain dead to use them for many of their offerings given choices available. The steady rise in bookmaker turnovers in recent years would suggest that this is a view held (but possibly not verbalised) by most bettors.

Now a quick (hopefully accurate) history of what happens when you arbitrarily increase takeouts in the belief that a punter will slavishly just accept a higher cost :

I came into racing in 1972. Bookmaker deductions were 7,5%. They later rose to 10% and in the early 90's were cranked to 12%.

The response was sharp and absolute. A massive percentage of betting went 'off book' ( ie bucket shop) as punters were not in the mood to accept a payout of R88 on a R100 win bet.

It was not long before the deduction was negotiated back to 6%; where it has been ever since. Proving that if you price your product or service beyond a palatable level you can lose your customer to a competitor or alternative activity.

As much as bookmakers receive a lot of flak for 'not contributing their fair share' (whatever that might mean!) to the sport the reality is that neither bookmakers nor the operator contribute anything at all to the sport. IT IS ALL CONTRIBUTED BY THE VOICELESS PUNTER.

It quickly becomes apparent that the most desired punter is the mug punter. The punter who will, week in and week out, spend R50 without question on lottery type bets in the hope of landing a life changing win. To be frank - smart form studiers who ask embarrassing questions about R1 place payouts are not the operators' preferred customer!

All this tear sodden talk about the cost of 'putting on the show' is also largely spin. Posters who drone on about this topic seem unaware that the operator has already sold most of the 'theatres' whilst owners pay for the 'players' (the horses) in their totality. Gee - I'd love to run a business where I could duck that overhead and still dicatate!

Given the above many of the functions which allegedly are the responsibility of the operator are handled with an alarming lack of professionalism & effectiveness. So how well is that 'takeout' being spent?

And surely you can't blame bookmakers for poor track conditions, malfunctioning stalls, inconsistent policing, aged IT systems, standard definition Tellytrack broadcasts & a multitude of other services (some charged for) which are often only erratically delivered?

I hear you Garrick....
But a bookmaker should never be allowed to use the tote pool as a payout for their bet...it should NEVER be allowed....and talk about shrewd...even by my own admission I think I am shrewd as they come.
I will play into a 20k pa pool in Lingfield for example and in my own way I'll create that pool into a R100k pool by playing the bet with 5 bookies at 2k a time for example if I think it's an easy pa ..

I will be the first to miss the open bet...but for the longevity of racing it's not a healthy situation.

I still find it hard to understand punters say they can't get on.
I say punters are lazy..
There must be 10 on line bookies or more at the moment
Open an account with each of them and punt your heart out..then some will say your account gets closed or limited..open on your wife's name then..your gardeners name..it's endless...you die first before you run out of options...on line betting can really hurt these bookies if you shrewd enough..
If anybody wants to win a 100 k or more..pm me..I'll get it on for them...and before the bookies opens their eyes.
They'll be standing it for a total of 100K or more
Everytime hollywood or bookie offers a special of a 20% or whatever bonus...I make 50 k from them without them even knowing....and no risk with multiple accounts.

July Day is a prime example of how a strong tote pool can be for exotic bets.

As Sucker mentioned I will never play an exotic bet on the Tote for a Foreign meeting. Plenty of times I have collected the nett pool with the bookies and my investment at times was not even more than a R1000.

Also there is a bet type you can wager on the open bet with the payout inflated due to a certain circumstance....

sucker wrote: I hear you Garrick....
But a bookmaker should never be allowed to use the tote pool as a payout for their bet...it should NEVER be allowed....and talk about shrewd...even by my own admission I think I am shrewd as they come.
I will play into a 20k pa pool in Lingfield for example and in my own way I'll create that pool into a R100k pool by playing the bet with 5 bookies at 2k a time for example if I think it's an easy pa ..

I will be the first to miss the open bet...but for the longevity of racing it's not a healthy situation.

I still find it hard to understand punters say they can't get on.


I say punters are lazy..
There must be 10 on line bookies or more at the moment
Open an account with each of them and punt your heart out..then some will say your account gets closed or limited..open on your wife's name then..your gardeners name..it's endless...you die first before you run out of options...on line betting can really hurt these bookies if you shrewd enough..
If anybody wants to win a 100 k or more..pm me..I'll get it on for them...and before the bookies opens their eyes.
They'll be standing it for a total of 100K or more
Everytime hollywood or bookie offers a special of a 20% or whatever bonus...I make 50 k from them without them even knowing....and no risk with multiple accounts.

Hey Sucker,

Please post some of those easy pa's here on this site?