Re:Why are people not talking about Phumelela folding tomorrow?

RA Stranger wrote: Point taken Flaunt but what is most worrisome is that some of the assets may be over valued and open to massive depreciation given the crisis we are in for who knows how long. Take Turffontein Racecourse as an example what would the actual property value be in a fire sale, Who could/would buy it at the current ledger price and repurposed it given the location. How badly do they bleed just trying to maintain it Then Supabets what is its value today or even Bettingworld that cant generate any of the value /profits of the rather hefty price tags they were bought or built for. Who would want to sink their hard cold cash into this dogs breakfast a very bleak prospect indeed.

I hear what you saying , but then so should the NAV of every property REIT in SA be written down including hyprop , redefine , etc etc
So should the plants of anglos , amplats , etc etc
Are you then saying in the good times re value assets up ????

Then again these companies you mention are not in any type of precarious position that PHUM currently find themselves in. They have not got their begging bowls out just yet. Most of them have by far more tangible assets and fit for purpose positions to still attract investment. Again I ask the question who will invest in this lame duck and with passions aside their assets are not of any real value of what they may state.

RA Stranger wrote: Then again these companies you mention are not in any type of precarious position that PHUM currently find themselves in. They have not got their begging bowls out just yet. Most of them have by far more tangible assets and fit for purpose positions to still attract investment. Again I ask the question who will invest in this lame duck and with passions aside their assets are not of any real value of what they may state.

With respect what garbage you talk .
Certain property companies have well in excess of 50 % gearing on their balance sheets . They cannot pay dividends any longer and that was the reason to be invested in a REIT. They have done numerous bookbuilds to buy assets while diluting shareholders . I don’t have any allegiance to Phumelela but consistently read stuff on this forum from disgruntled people with weak arguments . What does it matter who would want to invest ? Assets exceed liabilities . Even if you wrote down assets there is still place for an equity investor . Whether it was due to passion or not , what right should anybody have to tell them to do with their cash ... laughable .
If I may ask you to name me some great companies now with tangible assets?

At flaunt and RAstranger.

You guys are both well versed in business and economics from the arguments you make but let me share something with you.

I learned this many years ago when I was in credit from a boss who knew his stuff. He used to say that no amount of security makes a bad deal good and I buy into this.

The number one qualification in credit is affordability from a cash flow or income perspective and something I personally rate even higher is the company or borrowers intention.

Assets are seldom worth what they are valued for in a depressed market or forced sale and given this values are highly subjective and can be very rangy.

If someone comes in with a take over bid I will be interested in their intent as many buy only to strip the assets which always leads to pain for staff and the business.

I'm no businessman, however when I see "unaudited results looking for voluntary liquidation" that says something to me. The no's need to be audited before calling for a voluntary liquidation, or are they hoping for people to come in and do the audit free for them.

My opinion, no racing for a good few months, trainers don't push your horses too hard right now. Owners get ready for the long haul.

oscar wrote: I'm no businessman, however when I see "unaudited results looking for voluntary liquidation" that says something to me. The no's need to be audited before calling for a voluntary liquidation, or are they hoping for people to come in and do the audit free for them.

My opinion, no racing for a good few months, trainers don't push your horses too hard right now. Owners get ready for the long haul.

Independent auditors present their opinion on wether the Financial Statements are accurate and " present a true & fair view" of the company's financial performance. They rarely uncover fraud or other illicit transactions which makes the difference between unaudited and audited financial statements thin.
Unless there is call for forensic audit; then fraud can be detected easily.

....Im not here to debate prowess in investment strategy I hardly invest in shares but have held some by pure default and being close to the coal face on this dog says no matter how much lipstick you put on this pig it still wont fly.
If some super passionate people are trying to prop up this dog good luck to them. Even before the Covid crisis there was supposed to have been so called restructuring but procrastination has now caught them rather flat footed. They simply cannot go on in their current predicament. Something has to give in hopefully sooner than later as while local racing is at a standstill it would be better now to get a better structure in place so that when we can race there will be no major speed bump to have the wheels come off totally.

RA Stranger wrote: ....Im not here to debate prowess in investment strategy I hardly invest in shares but have held some by pure default and being close to the coal face on this dog says no matter how much lipstick you put on this pig it still wont fly.
If some super passionate people are trying to prop up this dog good luck to them. Even before the Covid crisis there was supposed to have been so called restructuring but procrastination has now caught them rather flat footed. They simply cannot go on in their current predicament. Something has to give in hopefully sooner than later as while local racing is at a standstill it would be better now to get a better structure in place so that when we can race there will be no major speed bump to have the wheels come off totally.

100% when there is no money left thats when real things happen and they saying clearly the money has run out.

@Flaunt I will bow to your superior knowledge iro stocks. I however have asked you a question about what happens to shares should a company declare business rescue or insolvency and have not had a response. There is precious little to be found regarding SA listed stocks that are affected in this regard, however the US model says the following, and I would guess we would be identical to them?

When a publicly-listed company declares bankruptcy and goes into liquidation, the company's shareholders may be entitled to a portion of the assets, depending on what type of shares they hold. However, the stock itself is worthless, and cannot be sold.

Now I have been around the block a few times and know that the Phumelela decision makers are slippery as eels. You will note that I used a what if scenario, based on the many messages received ( I'm sure you have had them too ) and did not say this was fact.

If you are referring to me in your rant then all I will say is have a good day but understand what is being said before you slag off.

Over the Air wrote:

flaunt wrote: No chance
Results for 6 months are just out on sens .
JSE don’t just suspend shares !

What do they do when a company announces that it's going into business rescue / liquidation?

Genuine question.

Phumelela Gaming and Leisure Limited
JSE: PHM
68,00 ZAC −5,00 (6,85%)
05 May, 10:00 SAST · Disclaimer

To make it clear , my rant was blanket , not aimed at anyone .
In terms of business rescue the share would trade unless the directors applied to the JSE to have it suspended . Basil read etc did the same as did Aveng. Many other companies that were in search of a rescue also traded one of which was PPC and the other was CIL.
Liquidation is a different matter , the share would ultimately be suspended . You would however be able to trade off market in the case of one being short and wanting to square their position. Phumelela I dont believe is at these stages yet , at least definitely not liquidation. Ultimately I believe wholeheartedly that the business has been pathetically run . Racing can work in this country in a different format . I have done some workings that tell me according to what I feel should be done I could see a maiden plate at 300 k first prize in 6 months . Where I see the problems is that many people have their view and many agendas so not sure how long things take ... that’s the ultimate risk !