Thinking Twice

Thanks

Any idea what the tote take out is on win bets in France?

I agree with Barry that the wealthiest racing jurisdictions in the world are Tote monopolies. However, my fear that any attempt to ban bookmakers in SA would backfire horribly, and not have the desired effect. In theory, perhaps, but as I said in an earlier post the time when such a thing could even have been contemplated has long since passed.

That is why I said that I would be in favour of a Tote monopoly in a dream world. Perhaps "perfect world" would have been a better choice of words, but given the fact that fixed odds betting is an integral part of SA life and that most existing Tote facilities are dumps, I could never countenance it in the real world.

Anyway, this discussion is all theoretical. It ain't gonna happen.

Matthew

1. Do you think that the contribution of bookmakers to the running cost of racing is fair?

2. Bookmaker's deduction only come from winning bets. Would it not be fairer to apply it to ALL bet's?

Sharkie,

1. Should bookmakers contribute to the staging of soccer matches, rugby, cricket, golf, etc

2. How much does Phumelela pay to the soccer league for the Six-bet?

Karel, my answer is a BIG yes, for question no 1. I also remeber that when the Six-bet started that Phumelela made a deal with SAFA. I am sure that they are paying, but not sure how much.

This is how I see it. Let's say I have a large cellphone retail business. For years I have developed the business, have spend fortunes on advertising, sponsorships etc, to attract customers to my business. This investment has paid off, and I now even own the buiding wherein the business is located.

You having noticed how sucessfull my business is, and decides to put a stall in front of my door, selling cellphones, the same ones that I sell, at cheaper prices than me, as your infrastructure and cost is non-existant. In fact your only cost is the price of the cellphone. If the police and legal system does not prevent it, then I will sort the situation out with a shotgun. It will amount to theft, regardless of how one looks at it.

The situation with bookmakers is very similar. They have expenses, but zero COST OF SALES. I am not saying we must close all bookmakers down, but I am saying that they should pay a fair price towards the cost of running racing. That contribution should be calculated on ALL bets and not only on winning bets.

Why does bookmakers not start virtual racing?

Sharkie, like me, you must be Jewish, because you make so much sense when talking about business.

You are, of course, 1 million percent correct in your analogy.

But I have some very bad news for you my friend, because I plan to put a portable card table in the alley next door to your store and sell cellphones that are disposiable and will cost a fifth of the price of even the guy with the stall! And to make sure my card table has the most visibility possible, I plan to have an outstandingly conformed young lady clad only in a mico-bikini dancing right next to my card table. This young lass will look even better than some of the fluff the RA have on display in the Elevation room.

There is enough room for both types of operations imo. Each has place and each offers a certain amount of value to us punters. Punting is an intimidating game to get involved in. Some of you may have been racing since school and others have started later as I have. Try and cast your mind back to a time when you first took a couple of bets. It was intimidating. You did not know what was going on and were bombarded by the tote Jockey for being bet dumb. Laff had a quote on Hollywood at one stage about people in racing disparaging each other. Disparaging the appropriate word to describe looks of the local tote punters at the time. They did not need to say a word. I digress.

The Tote - I believe the tote operators have lost the plot. Casino style gambling for horse racing will never work. Why? Well let’s go back to the beginning. Entry to punting horses starts in a tote. Most start at a tote, bookies are way more intimidating in the beginning. The Tote - usually a dog hole filled with one or two unsavoury types. Why did I choose to bet on horses in the first place and why did I choose the tote. Well for me it was the pools. I could win a million if I choose 6 numbers in successive races. Wow. Easier than the lotto. Pools are the secret to the totes success. Adding new money is paramount to the totes success. The problem with tote betting now is that the pools are being diluted by this insatiable desire of the operators to pull every last cent out of the same old punters pockets. The pools are being diluted by donkey cart racing, froggie racing (French) and racing from centres that just don’t matter. Slowly the pools are dwindling because players are sticking their cash on a pick 3 rather than going for the big bomb, the pick6. We are taking the same pool of money from the same pool of players and spreading it thinner, making our good bets look less attractive to the new punter. Where is the new blood, the new money. You certainly will not get it if you are not offering the millions. This is the beginning and we evolve as punters from here.

Mr Bookie – Fixed odds punters such as myself are simply evolved tote punters. I’ve started to realise over time that the Tote is offering less and less value. With a bookie I can create my own Pick 6 over many different race meetings and my odds are fixed. I realise that I am limited to betting limits but I can live with that. A prime example of the disasters of the tote is Met day. Please I am not being an after the fact merchant here but I need to illustrate my point. I had a multiple on 3 successive races. Cocoa Beach x Burberry x Mokaro R20.00 paid +/- R6 000. The same pick 3 result was around R120.00 x 20 = R2400.00. On a big day such as the Met this should have paid more. The point is the pools were diluted by the amount of racing we had on the day. I still love the Pick 6 bet and will still support the tote when it comes to this bet. When the P6 pools drop below a mill the tote will lose me completely. You need to pull me back and replace the likes of me that you have already lost with new players.

The Pool – Operators need to go back to basics and realise that the large pool is the key to pulling new money. The lotto attracts its players by offering a fantastic (unattainable) prize. Millions. Offer millions in a prize rather than a million opportunities to make scraps. Stop blaming and stop looking for excuses. You have the tools; you have the product now sell it. Not to me. I know what it is. Sell it to my mates who only speak to me about racing at July time.

Horse racing the “intelligent bet”. There is nothing intelligent about rushing through a card of horses, jockeys and trainers you know nothing about whilst races overlap and are given two seconds to get a bet on for the next betting opportunity, the mugs choosing simply to have a bet. This is not an intelligent bet; it’s an insult to the punters intelligence!

Boys the future is ONLINE and because of SA's difficulties in providing its citizens with reliable high speed connection means that the tote and bookmakers will thrive for a while longer. But be advised that lurling is BETFAIR and sooner or later any person with half a brain and a connection will rather bet in a

On line betting is a quick fix to nowhere, because without a vibrant live venue for racing, there will be no place for the game to develop knowledgeable fans. Until the game thrives at the track again, it is going nowhere.

Alcaponee, in theory you are right, but you must realise that that P and GC have to keep the racing show going. It is them that maintain the training centres, it is them that maintain race courses it is them that have to supply the whole infrastructure, it is them that have to provide stakes. The buck stops with them. The bookmakers other than their miniscule small contribution (only from winning bets) have none of these problems or overheads.

I am not a Phumelela and (new) Gold Circle lover, but as a businessman, I understand their frustration very well. If I was in their position I would exploit every single legal avenue to force them to pay a fair price for the racing product that they are feeding on like a parasite. Do not close them down, force them to pay their fair share.

It is no wonder they can provide those beautifull, air-conditioned lounges where punters can punt in luxury. If they have to pay their fair share for the racing product then maybe GC and P would have the money to upgrade their own facilities, and maybe punters would have to start paying for the free lunches that they have been receiving up to now. A number of bookmakers will find that the industry is no longer the (free) goose that lays the golden eggs. Paying for the goose will hurt badly. Obviously they would have to pay for this by bigger deductions making their payouts less attractive than before. All of a sudden you will find that there is no longer such a big difference between the tote and the bookmaker. Getting this bigger income will enable the operators to reduce their "take out", and there you have it you are comparing apples with apples. Currently comparing bookmakers payouts to tote payouts is NOT comparing apples to apples.

Sharkie. Comparing the operations of the 2 is not comparing apples with apples. The point of my post is that the operators are not protecting their pools, they are diluting them.

We must be careful to not lose site of the fact that bookmakers have been around for a long time and now all of a sudden, now that bookies have advanced themselves and are starting to offer a superior product, the operators are shifting blame. "Its not my fault, its those damn bookies". The operator cannot sit on its hands and blame everyone but itself for its shortcomings. You must remember that these are the same operators who promote betting on soccer, golf and other types of non related betting through Tellytrack and its Bettingworld operation. Of course we are the ones that they are promoting this type of betting to and of course betting revenue on horse racing is probably suffering because of this. Smacks of double standards and pulling the proverbial wool over our eyes.

Does P and GC pay 14% VAT on winnings like bookmakers do?I would assume so,but does anyone have the facts?