Scottsville Race 8 Betting Percentage-135%

i am slow, but what is this ringfencing of racing that is due to happen? are you saying suddenly there will be no punters?

yes it's the same money going around - that's what gambling is all about. if you are a bookie or a tote or a casino or a LPM operator you count on winners recycling their money.

governments lower interest rates for the same reason - to increase or reduce the speed at which the same money flows around the economy.

so, is the credit crunch about to hit bookmaking? i don't get it

Ringfencing is just a accounting term invented by the "clever" guys...

in the past, an attorney (in the law/service industry) could buy a farm (in the argicultural industry) with money earned (before paying tax) in the law/service industry.

the workers on the farm were on the attorney firms payroll.
the tracktors and 4x4 were bought as assets on the attorney firms books, depreciated over 5 years..

Hence the farm was a tax haven..
instead of paying taxes..it was better to buy farms..

THIS STOPPED, because the law/service industry has been "RINGFENCED"

The racing industry objected when the government wanted to "RINGFENCE" the industry.
the argument was..No races horse will be bought..hence no racing..(because the guys are using money generated in other industries (before paying tax) to buy horses...
the point is...once you must buy horses with after tax money or money generated by you in the horse racing industry...no horses will be sold...

the only reason the RACING INDUSTRY seems on a HIGH is..

I can have a farm in the USA...
sell some mule to my stud farm in RSA as a stallion..at $20m...
my stud farm in RSA will pay the $20m..
the money will leave the country..
before tax money that was generated by another company (owned by me & mates)...
the stallion will be insured in RSA...
die a few months later..
same applies for mares....



Once the industry is ringfenced later this year..will happen..
where will bookmakers get money from...
punters cannot move the money from their companies anymore without having to pay tax on the money...

there is too little money going around to support 104 bookmakers with their expenses (rent, salaries, turfsport, teletrack and bookmakers personal salary) per month, once the industry is "RINGFENCED"

washing of money will still take place...those will survive...but not from PUNTER MONEY...

so bookies won't be able to use their businesses to subsidise owning horses. and the wealthy types that own horses because of the tax breaks will no longer want to do so. supply and demand says that the price of owning horses will go down.

but are those the guys pushing betting money through the system? bookies for a start don't generate betting turnover they feed off it. at 135% and higher they gorge themselves. i imagine (because i am not one) that wealthy people who own horses for tax reasons do not bet heavily, because they aren't interested in the horse or racing per se.

whereas those wealthy folks who own racehorses for the sport of it do tend to punt, and punt big, and some of them punt smart. same goes for some bookies who own horses - at least their punting is tax deductible and will continue to be.

so i suppose at the margins, a follower of the game who can no longer get the tax breaks might put their money elsewhere. are the majority of wealthy punters that feed the industry really punting for the tax breaks? surely there aren't so many crooked accountants about...

Greenbook
most horse owners dont punt big.
by big I mean take R200k of each horse of theirs that run.
They will punt the odd fav.

so lets split owners and punters for now.

Punters
are the life of the industry.

Phumelela (tote) takes +27% of every pool on every race, every day.
Phumelela advertise that they payout R150m every month..
That is then R150m + R27% = >R205M per month that they take..on the tote

some of the money goes to the Government..ie road building fun..
the rest is used to put the stakes up for every race..average >R50k per race.
average 10 races per day x 30 days x R50k = >R15,000,000 in stake money pm
perhaps the average is R100k or even more..
stake money that they get from TOTE punters every day..

the guys that sponser the races..pay a nominal precentage of the stake money.
from this stake money the trainer get 10% if the horse runs 1,2,3,4, or 5
The jockeys get 8% (some 10%)..
The owner gets the rest..

KZN
most punters on the tote...?
fav looses the 1st leg..PA or P6 or Jackpot..90% of the tickets are gone..
Why..small R6 to R100 punters on P6,PA and Jackpots

CPT
most % punters
fraction punting 5 & 10 per unit cents were available in the CAPE since before 1980's at the tattersals

GAUTENG
Big punters...
mostly white males..
soccer bets are about R15 average per ticket

So, if I remove the punter from the sum..
and remember it's cash every day.........
Pumelela then gets R0.00
The stakes are then R0.0
The trainers get 10% of R0.00.....trainer gone..
The jockeys get 8-10% of R0.00....RA will still pay him >R480.00 per ride..?
The owners get 80-82% of R0.00....Owner expensive hobby..

The bookmaker get 4% Kickback from the tote turnover of R0.00..bookmaker gone

Where do the punters get the money from to punt on the tote..
73% back from the tote...the R150m pm that Phumelela pays out to punters pm..
27% from their wages...about R55m per month to make up the R205M gross tote..
about R1,8m per day poured into the industry daily by the Punters on the tote.
100,000 punters each putting R18 into the system daily..more likely
or 10,000 punters putting each R180 into the system daily..not likely

The tote turnover are not growing..P6 stays around R1m for some years now..
Punters are being retrenched..
soon the 100,000 punters each putting R18 per day into the system will dry up..
see Durban..300 jobs at Metro...23,000 applicants..that dont have R18 to put in

tote turnover drops...
current 4% kickback from tote on R2m turnover pm..pays rent, salalries etc.
bookmakers 4% becomes 2.75%..sliding scale..
R80,000 pm becomes R27,500 pm kickback from tote..
R27,500 pm too little to pay expenses...
Punter punting with bookmakers..
ON credit only....??
why would punter punt with bookie..if he can get better odds on Interbet..
only for Credit...
ps..the law states ...you not allowed to give credit..
2 laws..one on game of skill..one on game of chance...


Owners..
most owners bought horses with money generated from money made by companies owned by them..
It was and still is ok by SARS to do this for now.
The law will be passed soon..RINGFENCE OF the INDUSTRY..

Then the owners must first pay tax on the money
be personal tax of 40%
be it company tax of 30%
then they can buy a horse..of R1,000,000
if the guy paid personal tax..the horse cost R1,666,666.00..R666,666.00 tax
If the guy paid company tax...the horse cost R1,428,571.4...R428,571.40 tax

the guy still has to pay vat on top of the R1,000,000..???

now the hobby becomes expensive..
monthly the keep average R6k..add tax paid to get the R6k..real R10k..R4k tax

When the RINGFENCE is done..a lot of guys will leave the industry..

Greenbook
You write..
...surely there aren't so many crooked accountants about...

the accountant work within the law..
they are not crooked at all.........
it's the law that allows this practise.

see it like this..

we all are in a Resession..
SARS is sitting there..expecting every one to post a tax loss..
a TAX loss can be carried forward to next year, and the next..

so, we dont cheat the income..show every cent..
so, we dont cheat the vat.....pay every cent...
However..we generate fake expenses...
not thousands..
not hundereds of thousands..
not Millions...
not ten's of millions...
BUT BILLIONS....
write off fake bad debt...billions..

now we dont have to pay tax..this year..next year..and ....
it's not crooked..
it's wise..
AND THEY ARE ALL DOING IT...
every one of the +840 JSE listed companies..
every PTY..
every CC..
every trading as..
every partnership..

so SARS will only get money from property transfers..transfer duty..but if DR.BLADE get his way..the banks will not reposses their homes..no sales..no transfer duty..

Guess..SARS will have to stand in line for the 300 metro jobs in Durban..

THATS THE MAIN REASON why the government wants to RINGFENCE the industry..
THE GOVERNMENT WANT TAXES....

Dave,

Who sent my post to USO,wasn't me?

@ least it shows that this site is being read and that opinions need to be voiced,because we as the punters now have a voice due to sites like this.

Morning JAP, missed the start of the show, but I am always sending emails on "hot" subjects to the racing authorities, glad we had a mention, will try and catch replay.

I am just happy with the fact that important issues are starting to get airtime.If those in charge of the various facets of racing are just prepared to listen to their customers a lot will get achieved.

good on you JAP.