Tote Favorite are they serious

As Bignic stated on the other thread, it cant be the atc bet as it only shortened late and never showed immediatly. Either they are hiding something or the are plain incompetent. Either way they must go.

Cpied from the RA THREAD


I met with Vee this morning:



Regarding Race 4:

There was a large win bet placed on #6 Port Curtis with 3 minutes to the off shortening it to 4.20, the bet was placed overseas. The result on #9 Waging War was that it drifted to 4.60 for the win.

Effects: The original favourite, #9 Waging War, paid R4.60 for the win instead of 2.00-2.50.

#6 Port Curtis became tote favourite

#6 Port Curtis paid 4.20 a win and place

The punter for #6 Port Curtis lost

The loss taken by the punter on the win bet on #6 Port Curtis did not have any effect on the Pick6. #15 was an uncoupled scratching.



Regarding Race 8:

There was a large win bet placed on #2 Gotham Prince with 3 minutes to the off shortening it to 4.00, from the same source overseas. The result on #9 Perestroika was that it drifted to 4.20 for the win.

Effects: The original favourite, #9 Perestroika, paid 4.20 for the win instead of 2.50

#2 Gotham Prince became tote favourite

The punter for #2 Gotham Prince lost

PA tickets on #8 were lost

P6 tickets on #8 were lost



The discussion I had with Vee brought up the following:

1) To prove tote manipulation would require an understanding of the intention of the punter that placed the bet, which could never really be proven. Therefore, if it is to be controlled, it needs to be done by the Tote, either by putting in place methods to prevent it or by empowering punters to avoid the pitfalls.

2) Measures are in place limit manipulation by cancelling bets. All bets of more than R500 that are requested to be cancelled, need to be approved before they are cancelled.

3) The main problem is for the PA and P6, for which there is little that can be done besides changing the coupling and/or scratching rules. Knowing the risk of changing tote favourites, punters should be limiting their exposure by including the “expected favourite” as well as scratched coupled runners to ensure that even if the tote favourite changes, they still include the horses they wanted in their bet.



I would be happy to take any suggestions regarding ways to prevent manipulation for the PA and P6 to Phumelela for discussion.

Simple just don't punt on the tote, less hassle....

Make the tote favourite the horse thats combined win and place payouts is the lowest for example if nr 1 pay R4-50 for a win and R1-10 for a place it is R5-60 nr 2 pay R3-00 for a win and R2-50 for a place it is R5-50 therefore 2 is the fav or have a different favourite for different pools only wins count for p6 and jackpot therefore the win price is relevant in the pa the fav should be the horse paying least for places

IS THIS THE RETURN OF THE PHANTOM?

With respect RA i had no 15 in my pick six as a scratching in order to double up my % in the pick six it does affect my pick six and the payout because WAGING WAR was fav right untill they jumped and should have been fav. .Why not play open cards and tell us who this punter is. Your explanation leaves me and im sure many others unconvinced.

Hibs the phantom was backing favourites..... This is strange cause those horses mentioned did NOT have the form to be serious contenders imo.... Obviously somebody with lots of buckaroos to blow!!!

BIGNIC raises an interesting point there, maybe they should look at that ruling??

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What kind of idiot would place such big bets on the tote that it turns 14/1 and 16/1 shots into the favourite, reducing his potential return to 3/1 or 4/1 or so, when he can take a bet with a bookie or Betfair?

Are these 'big' punters overseas that stupid?

The situation is simple........don't bet with the tote.
It is not for punters to beg for an acceptable product and punters don't owe owners their stakes.If owners want punters to support pools that support stakes,THEY must ensure a product that suits punters.It is how life works in every other industry.
Can we have a straight answer to one question? Is the take-out for co-mingled pools identical to normal pools.It is hard to believe that the confidentiality concerns between the RA and"P" are not in play here......what are the secrets they don't want to be known ?

Yes which countries are we co-mingling ??.... With these strange betting moves I can only conclude its a country that only offers TOTE BETTING?

Rob you. are right to ask that question but my guess is we aint going to get the honest answer. Sabre they must think we are totaly ignorant as you say anyone punting that big is going to know that the end dividend is going to reduce greatly.. if he put 30grand on PORT CURTIS at 14/1 he gets 420000/30000 and his tote return at 4.20 a win would only be 126000.You cant tell me they could punt like that. Come on guys get real.