Horse Auctions and the CPA

The CPA act is not based on an Urban Legend - It happens that's why Ebay and many top auction houses outlaw Shill bidders -

"According to the Cape Times of Cape Town, Levitt has stepped down from his post so an independent investigation can determine if there has been any wrongdoing and if Levitt played any role in it. The probe was launched by officers of Auction Alliance after businesswoman Wendy Appelbaum lodged a 500-page complaint with the Consumer Protection Commission about “irregularities” that allegedly occurred in a wine estate auction last December.

In its Feb. 21 issue, the Cape Times wrote: “In the last week Levitt and the auction house have been the focus of investigations by the commission, the Estate Agencies Affairs Board and the South African Institute of Auctioneers, each of which are to probe allegations of hefty financial kickbacks to liquidators, attorneys and bank staff as well as bogus bidding on the auction floor on the instructions of Levitt himself.”
full story
www.cyberprop.com/cyber1_09032012_10.shp

I have never been caught at any Auction -


www.guardian.co.uk/technology/2010/apr/2...icted-auction-fixing
"eBay let me open the second account and I gave all my personal details and home address to do so," he told the magistrate.

"I realised the price was too low on some things and put the prices up using the second account. I've never been in trouble before and would like to apologise." The two regulations, which became law after growing complaints about internet fraud, carry fines of up to £5,000 for each offence.

Jack Dash Wrote:

---

> Mr Hawaii, have you been "ripped off" or caught in
> some way at an auction? Do you actually know
> anyone who has been caught? Not the urban legend
> stuff.
>
> I have been to many auctions, and I have heard the
> stories etc. But I am battling to think of anyone
> I know who has ever told me that they have been
> caught. I know many people who have bought very
> many horses. I have on occasion regretted a
> purchase, but more often regretted the ones I
> missed.
>
> One yearling failed a scope after the sale, but
> you are supposed to scope before you leave the
> sales grounds. I called the sellers, they agreed
> that if the vet certified the failure, they
> discounted 50% of the price.
>
> Most of the 3rd hand stories of auction scandal
> come from the standard bunch who talk about
> pulling, betting coups, crooked jocks etc etc.
> I've never given much weight to those on the basis
> that if you sleep with dogs...
>
> On this forum are people who have bought many,
> many horses. Hotline, for example, has been
> buying horses for the 25 odds years I've known
> him. Surely one of these people would say if they
> were "caught" and had no redress.
>
> I'm not saying it's impossible or doesn't happen,
> I merely make the point that you can go on and on
> about this, when in fact the people who actually
> do this instead of speculate about it, wonder what
> you are on about. To them an auction in SA is a
> relatively safe place, believe it or not.

One does not have to be caught to realize that some thing foul is at play at horse auctions.....do your self a favor and delve into the sporting post mailbag archives and track down a letter posted by a Mrs Carlisle who was trying blow the whistle on skeem that involved a very prominent breeder a KZN trainer and an American business man who landed up paying double on each horse the trainer bid for and the trainer received a sizable kick back .....he made a killing.....the letter was never followed up and the lady was hushed up....

Therein lies the problem, that you will rubbish an entire process because some agents screw their clients. Your example has nothing to do with the sales, auctions or breeders, but with criminals, liars and con men. You have to wonder how they would be able to stay around for long in such a closed community?

I've spent way too much time trying to defend most of the men and women who are players in a tough business that most of them love. But you insist that it's a massive conspiracy there to defraud aspiring new owners. I surrender to you, even though I know most of the sellers and many of the buyers, you obviously know stuff I don't and any defense is therefore pointless.

One observation, nearly every scheme I've heard of involves some buyer who trusts someone who betrays them, or someone working as an agent who middles their client. Most of the time the seller is just a seller, and the auctioneer just an auctioneer. Buyers tend to be the schemers, the non-payers, the markup and add-on merchants. But you would never say so to read these threads. That's me out.

Jack Dash I did not make the new Law - If the industry is clean then no worries - if it is not then those that break the law will be punished and lose custom - How you can call a buyer a schemer when he has paid an extra % on a horse because a vendor has pushed up the price through shill bidding is beyond me. I have never heard someone refer to his customers as "schemers" before.

Garrick, nobody knows when I am bidding unless I want them to.

And don't prejudice me because I drink tea!

Seriously, if this is the way the game will be played, with paddles, I am done in So Africa.

Go ahead and bookmark it.

If it is the law then goodbye barry, perhaps its time to start look for weapons of mass destruction???????

mr hawaii Wrote:

---

> Jack Dash I did not make the new Law - If the
> industry is clean then no worries - if it is not
> then those that break the law will be punished and
> lose custom - How you can call a buyer a schemer
> when he has paid an extra % on a horse because a
> vendor has pushed up the price through shill
> bidding is beyond me. I have never heard someone
> refer to his customers as "schemers" before.

Mr H we are on the same page ....and if it were not for this those that had been "handled" then they may have stayed in the game.
The industry has become cleaner only because times are leaner but in the times of plenty..... many a whale got fleeced......:
I love this game too, warts and all ......but to defend it and it was squeaky clean would be turning a blind eye to the problems....and one whould need guidance and savvy to navigate and stay away from those who are out to make quick turnover....:S

It will be hard to convince anybody that all this nonsense about paddles and bidding where even the man on the moon can see you will do anything to stop "shill" bidding. All it will do is waste time and give proceedings the appearance of an overhaul, but no piece of well-intentioned but ultimately futile legislation can change the essence of what an auction is about. The seller by definition has the advantage in the sense that it is his property that is being sold and can always find a way to try and up the price if he so chooses, while the auctioneer by definition is working for the seller to try and achieve the best possible price. I can't see how any amount of legal mumbo jumbo can change those basics, but good luck to those of you who think it will.

I hope the pub is well stocked, because we are going to be there for an awfully long time. For reasons that I won't go into just yet, I think I'm glad that in the immediate future I may not be attending quite as many horse sales as I used to. I get 20 days leave a year, not 20 weeks.

mr hawaii Wrote:

---

> Jack Dash I did not make the new Law - If the
> industry is clean then no worries - if it is not
> then those that break the law will be punished and
> lose custom - How you can call a buyer a schemer
> when he has paid an extra % on a horse because a
> vendor has pushed up the price through shill
> bidding is beyond me. I have never heard someone
> refer to his customers as "schemers" before.

Don't treat me as a fool.

I am not referring to customers as schemers. The point is that many of the possible ways that people can steal are not embedded in the selling process, but in buyers cheating their principals. I am happy to debate with you, but not if you are going to be deliberately obtuse.

I think we back to where we have been many times in this thread. Just tell us what your minimum price is that you want and anyone who is still interested then bids from there up. You still do not need to show who is bidding so the guys who want to keep it a secret will still be happy. Quicker,more transparent and no people worrying about shill bidding and prices being pushed up or is that too transparent for everyone? Everyone knows where they stand and if we see that a horse is resold by the breeder after this we know he was still trying to push the price even further.That is unless the buyer did not pay and we can find that out anyway. It feels like some people think I am trying to re invent the wheel but just trying to find a way of making things easier and more transparent for everyone.

So the problem are agents? Now i have seen a few "agents" acting for breeders at one time - They bid a horse up to a point and then drop out leaving the buyer paying way more for the horse than he should have. I have seen trainers call up an owner and say the "buyer has no money to pay and the horse is a steal at the price." The horse was a buy back!

This is another part of the racing industry that refuses to move foward though legislation might help- Your potential customers have moved foward - they know a fair deal when they see one but how you can think that shill bidding, buy backs, private deals etc can be good for the game is beyond me. Ebay spends 6 million pounds a year to stop auction fraud - Would they do that if it was not good for business?

Both the seller and the buyer need to feel they have gotten a good deal

I sent an email to one of the " larnys" at the TBA with what we think and how we think a few changes could help transparency, be in tune with the law and save time. Promised to reply later so will let you know what he says.