Calling Dev... Hollywood prices

hibernia Wrote:

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> I think its simple English,Hollywood and the other
> bookies open early but the market is extremley
> weak and tbh is not worth a sook.So basically they
> can be knocked over for little money...The guys
> that are stealing or taking the early prices are
> doing so for no money and ruining the market for
> everyone else...


but why should they get the blame cos the peole who price up whoever it is cannot lay decent sized bets and not shorten horses?

pirates Wrote:

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> hibernia Wrote:
>

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>

---

> > I think its simple English,Hollywood and the
> other
> > bookies open early but the market is extremley
> > weak and tbh is not worth a sook.So basically
> they
> > can be knocked over for little money...The guys
> > that are stealing or taking the early prices
> are
> > doing so for no money and ruining the market
> for
> > everyone else...
>
>
> but why should they get the blame cos the peole
> who price up whoever it is cannot lay decent sized
> bets and not shorten horses?


Not defending anyone,but its called bookmaking,the art of bookmaking is making a book up .If you can only lay 1 or 2 horses in a race you cant make a book and you need to alter your prices to try and atract money for other runners

hibernia Wrote:

---

> I think its simple English,Hollywood and the other
> bookies open early but the market is extremley
> weak and tbh is not worth a sook.So basically they
> can be knocked over for little money...The guys
> that are stealing or taking the early prices are
> doing so for no money and ruining the market for
> everyone else...

Bob, I understand that is possible but... just about halving the price of 6 horses in 1 race? one horse moving from 10s to 33s in a couple of hours?

If that is what they say then ok but I would like them to say, we can only speculate. I remember the Shams querying something about their opening prices and suspected claims etc some months ago and wondered if maybe that has something to do with it, though Hwood said at the time if memory serves me right that they were going to stop whatever that was.

If it is the case that it is genuine movement caused by punters money then, kind of as you say, I would prefer the prices to be put up at a set time and then at least everyone has a fair chance at the opening prices rather than just those saddos who sit there 23 hours a day with their thermos flask A bit like us on ABC lol

Hi Guys, I will get a proper answer for you tomorrow from the team, but here is a possible explanation from my side:

In a nutshell, we have been doing early betting where we have our own oddsmakers price up before the official betting by the bookmakers is released. Once the official betting is released to all bookmakers around South Africa, we adjust our prices accordingly to follow the market price.

You might ask why match or better them? The reason being that if we have priced up a horse at 25/1 and it opens at 10/1, we are leaving our legs open for a big stuff - especially by those who are looking for stock or easy value.

It must be remembered that our early betting is as close to as possible the betting that is published in the Winning Form / Sporting Post. This way, punters who buy their books for future meetings can have a bet. You must acknowledge that these books are published a few days in advance to the actual running of the meeting. Therefore the betting might be close to it, but not exactly according to bets struck, and then when official betting opens up.

We were asked a while ago by Ruffian about when and how we price up: www.africanbettingclan.com/forum/phorum-...03,376481#msg-376481

On occasions we have someone who might get hold of a big price or take advantage of the early betting, and we shorten it. If someone is climbing in onto a 25/1 shot, would you keep laying it? No we adjust (as Hibs mentioned earlier - it's bookmaking). Very often, the market will follow this and open the horse at the similar price to what we have adjusted.

Unfortunately it is a bit misleading when seeing the opening price, and the current price, and wondering why there is such a big difference - it's not necessarily because someone has backed it, or an owner has got inside information. It's merely because our early betting is different to the current market price. We can get it wrong sometimes and sometimes there are other circumstances (especially when you have horses running within a few days of eachother - Kenilworth Sunday and Kenilworth Tuesday for example).

Here was the explanation Clyde gave to the Sham's on the situation: www.africanbettingclan.com/forum/phorum-...22,374193#msg-374193

We are still trying to find a way to clear the early betting lines from the website, but at the moment it's not possible.

Anyways I hope this has cleared up some of the confusion - but I will see if there is anything else the team want to add to this tomorrow.

Thanks Dev, that is an excellent and thorough response/explanation (tu) Helps a lot to know that it is mostly adjustments rather than actual money. With regard to clearing the opening betting lines... would it not be possible to add an extra column and show both your opening price as well as the adjusted market price, leaving the latter blank on a particular horse if the price has moved due to punter's money? That should make the position as to why the movement occurred much clearer (and be a good bit of "advertising" for you as having value on early prices ) No need to respond, just throwing an idea out there as a possibility.

Thanks again, much appreciated.

We took this up with Hollywood 4 months ago. The explanation was that after opening the betting there is a person who "adjusts" the prices . Why can't the prices be "adjusted" BEFORE opening then there wouldn't be these questions. Naresh is right, it makes it look like the yard is getting on before anyone else.

We have spoken to Clyde, Mike and waiting to hear back from Monty......

Still waiting for the problem to be corrected. Maybe now they will take note and stop making fools of people.

Dev talks about the 'official betting being released to bookmakers' - so who decides what the 'official betting' should be?

Has anyone been able to place a bet at the 'early/opening prices' as quoted by Hollywood?

Sham Racing Wrote:

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> We took this up with Hollywood 4 months ago. The
> explanation was that after opening the betting
> there is a person who "adjusts" the prices . Why
> can't the prices be "adjusted" BEFORE opening then
> there wouldn't be these questions. Naresh is
> right, it makes it look like the yard is getting
> on before anyone else.
>
> We have spoken to Clyde, Mike and waiting to hear
> back from Monty......
>
> Still waiting for the problem to be corrected.
> Maybe now they will take note and stop making
> fools of people.

We've taken it up with the IT team, and they seemed to have found a temporary solution. As Clyde explained to you, making changes to software does take time and requires approval from each provincial gambling board. We've taken your suggested solution into account, and we will be trying a different method when it comes to opening our betting. We are hoping the solution will keep the opening betting as close to our Early Betting when it is opened on the Hollywood platforms.

We really aren't trying to make "fools" of people, and doing this early betting was done to benefit the punters who like to find value early on when studying their future race cards. We apologize if we have come across in this way, but we are trying to better the process.

to me this "problem" is simply explained. we have no bookmakers we have people who lay the odds. a bookmaker as hibs correctly say is one who makes the book. in theory each and every bookmaker should offer different odds depending how hes book do look. the problem with SA bookmakers is they offer odds regardless of what there book is. so what is the solution? in my opinion more bookmakers and less turf accountants. dev show my theory is correct when he say they open with there odds but immediate adjust when "official" opening of odds take place. so what i am saying? odds are merely opinions on horse chance in a race. if your opinion differ from that of others why do you adjust? for many year i punt with proper bookmaker who dont flinch for 6 figure bets. to day i must deal with people who no under stand the game and must phone "head office" for permission to lay 20000 of a horse. in 1980 i get 200000 no problem. to day 20000 is a problem. is why i say time for bookmakers to be abolish. they dont exist any more.

i agree Flash, the bookmakers are like sheep....each Bookmaker should actually decide what his book is holding and make adjustments accordingly....not wait for the dissemination room to make the changes for them on their electronic boards.

Aryan Wrote:

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> i agree Flash, the bookmakers are like
> sheep....each Bookmaker should actually decide
> what his book is holding and make adjustments
> accordingly....not wait for the dissemination room
> to make the changes for them on their electronic
> boards.


Thats where the value lies with early prices catching bookies out who price up too big,even if you only get laid to 5 or 10 k

Flash Harry Wrote:

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> to me this "problem" is simply explained. we have
> no bookmakers we have people who lay the odds. a
> bookmaker as hibs correctly say is one who makes
> the book. in theory each and every bookmaker
> should offer different odds depending how hes book
> do look. the problem with SA bookmakers is they
> offer odds regardless of what there book is. so
> what is the solution? in my opinion more
> bookmakers and less turf accountants. dev show my
> theory is correct when he say they open with there
> odds but immediate adjust when "official" opening
> of odds take place. so what i am saying? odds are
> merely opinions on horse chance in a race. if your
> opinion differ from that of others why do you
> adjust? for many year i punt with proper bookmaker
> who dont flinch for 6 figure bets. to day i must
> deal with people who no under stand the game and
> must phone "head office" for permission to lay
> 20000 of a horse. in 1980 i get 200000 no problem.
> to day 20000 is a problem. is why i say time for
> bookmakers to be abolish. they dont exist any
> more.
Flash i agree but in 1980 the bet was between you and the bookmaker and no 1 else new the size or the horse ,today they have lots of outlets the bookies and need to know what is happening country wide regarding the laying of bets.. also the info provided to punters today is so much more...