YOU BE THE JUDGE NO. 2

meow meow catsmug you're a bullshyter. What's the problem now, were you expecting more credit for getting a mention on Tellytrack?

Great show but if I was new to the game it all would have gone straight over my head.


I am a bit concerned about educating the punting public. Average Joe punter sitting on a beer crate in a local shithole tote does not know, care or want to know about percentages. It makes no difference to him. He has his 6 bucks ridng on a bet taken from a three formline TAB sheet which is being shared by 20 others trying to pear at it on a wall and by the way it is crap compared to the old version. The bulk play to beat the favourite and alot go for the longshot. R6.00 on 5/10 or R6.00 on 33/1 when R20.00 is all you have. Which do you think the poorer punter will go for? Education will not stop this way of punting,

The last thing I would be doing if I was in any position of authority is to complicate matters. My very first post on this site had to do with the complications of this game and that people are scared off by all the facts figures and statistics. Now we want to educate the punter on percentages? Say goodbye to any future punters. We will be left with punters who have learned from family. I'll say it again LOOK FOR NEW MONEY DONT FLOG THE OVER FLOGGED HORSE.

Here is something to ponder:

If you want to grow this industry offer the blind bet Pick6.
1. 1 Race meeting a week 6 races, 12 or more horses per race
2. Non playing public picks 6 lucky numbers and hopes like hell much like the lotto
3. Machines randomly choose bets much like the lotto.
4. Have these machines next to every lotto machine in SA
5. Even better get Lotto to sponsor the 6 races and let there marketing machines work for us,and let there machines generate the tickets
6. The more people play the more they wil want to learn about the game. (The Hook) You need the hook to catch the fish.

I personally dont base bets on odds displayed for SA racing because they IMO are based on who the Jockey trainer combo is rather than the ability or readiness of the horse. I play the odds in England because when the shorten they win more often than when they shorten in SA.

The problem with racing is that we are in it, we are the proffessors lecturing on 3rd year engineering to millions of Grade 3s. We understand the ins and outs and concepts but the potential new punter doesnt and just wants to have a shot at winning without having to earn a degree. By being this way we are excluding ourselves from a mass gamb$ling market.

That's a question for the politians cat.

This site is pwoerful. All the players read it even if it like looking at porn for some - they look at it. It great that all the questions eminated from members of this forum (thevoice of the punter) We must give them credit for that.

I felt that Steves question was read ouy and not answered at all. Why read it?

Well it's two nights running now. Last night we had O. Ferraris raise the issue of Marlon's critical post here on ABC regarding she's on fire's win and subsequent incurrence of a 1kg penalty in the July.

Tonight, the RA opened the show floor to ABC in what can only be described as a surprise move, and a highly commendable one at that. One has to wonder now if the conspiracy theorists and troubleshooters will be reading anything into the ‘crop circles’ this time.

The topic was quite clear Tote vs Bookmakers.
The show went about bookmakers percentages.
All the questions still unanswered.
How many bookmakers are there in the RSA.
What turnover do they generate combined say on a maiden race at Gauteng, Kwazulu Natal,Western Cape, Easter Cape and Kimberley.
What is their turnover pro rata to our totes win place pools.
What do they contribute towards racing %
I only got one answer. Why don't bookies sponsor a race.
Because they don't have to, business decision

No they answered more than that They said they can sponsor a race if they do not offer the open bet. Too many waring factions fighting against eachother for the same cause

Bravo I do recall it being stated that there's 200 bookies in SA. And they did give some figures on tote vs bookies turnover and contribution to operator costs.

Well done to the clansman. I think the show was poor, as it did not come close to adressing the real problems, which is a result of a very lopsided panel.

The panel needed:

1. An owner the was stuck on two words "HIGHER STAKES"
2. A Punter: BETTER SERVICE AND INFRASTRUCTURE.
3. A Bookmaker
4. A Representative from the TOTE/Phumelela or GC

Opinions will differ depending on who is talking. It is very much the chicken and egg scenario. Who is the most important in racing or who makes racing tick. Does racing start with the horse or the trainer or the owner or the punter or the jockeys. It is a very important question as each will argue that they are racing, and a case can be made for each of them.

In my opinion, as an OWNER, I look at the sustainability of racing and the ability of the racing operators to pay fair STAKES to owners that lay out billions each year to buy and feed horses, Bookmakers are BAD for the owners and the industry. I was shocked that the return to racing or stakes is only 3% (50% of the 6%). I have always believed it to be at least 6%. Even that is nothing as the main problem is that a very big part of bookmakers turnover is "off the book", on which there is absolutely nothing going back to racing.

Secondly the "takeout" from the tote is much higher than the takeout from bookmakers but what is more is that it is on the entire pool. If the P6 pool is R 1 million then the takeout is +- 25% of the entire pool. The 6 % or racings 3% from bookmakers is only on WINNING bets, not on their entire turnover. (Lets say that the July is won by a 1000/1 outsider. It would mean that the bookmakers make a killing and very few people would collect money on the 1000/1 shot, with nothing flowing back to racing.) Every cent ventured on the tote will be subject to the tote takeout.

Quite simply, if you are an owner this, and only this is the issue, in the argument TOTE or BOOKMAKER. The discussion as far as owners is concerned should have centered around how to drastically level the playing fields between the two parties.

I still believe that owners should be paid for the use of their "property". Whilst agreements exist between the racing operators who maintain the infrastructure that allow racing to exist, one may consider a test case against a bookmaker/s that accepts bets on an owners horse without paying the owner.

Troubleshooter, what chance whould an owner have against the bookmaker/s for use of their intelectual property?

Sharkie i missed the first part of the show and only saw it now.
Shocking i can say for me as a racehorse owner aswell as a Punter.
You are right 6% of winning bets yes winning bets gets paid over. 3% to the state and 3% to the Racing operators. This contribute 10% towards the 600 000 000 needed to operate racing in this country.
8 Billion get betted in this country
5 Billion on the tote and 3 Billion with the Bookies.
The bookies themself doesn't contribute towards the running cost of racing but the punter actually do for being lucky enough to find a winner.
Between the tote and bookie the percentage of turnover isn't that big.

Its great to have the show and well done to the RA for that.
Imo, so far Charles Faull (last show) and Neil Andrews have been the shining lights.
Hats off to the ABC contributors for supplying all the questions for the panel.
As stated by Denzel Pillay, that besides himself, it was a pity it was a "whites only" panel.
At least another person of colour (representing the bulk of the punters and their concerns) should have been a given.
The Cradock man, Brugman talks a good game but as Pirates says doesnt seem to practise what he preaches.
Phumelela is Phumelela (they seem to be programmed, maybe they have a chip implanted in their necks and play the recording).
The Bookmaker representative was weak, but then its difficult to defend some of the indefensible practices that take place with some of his constituents.
What came out of the show is what we all know, the owner and the punter get shafted.
I know it might sound boring but i hope the RA can arrange that one of the shows for Phumelela to reveal the terms and conditions of their betting license, the duration, the stakes agreement, how the owners intellectual property was given away, how BEE compliant they are, what they doing to promote the disadvantaged iro punters, owners, trainers et al. Throw in the RA and they can jointly with P explain the Racing Trust, its constitution, its powers and how they can be used, the reason why it was constituted etc.

Cuckoo we have a BEE government in place and look how well that's working! The rest of the country's business leaders must be queuing to get this fantastic system of management up an running, especially those not reliant on government tenders to rape the country.

In fact the gambling board rep on the panel blew us all away in true BEE style with his one sentence answer to solving the country's woes, ‘Why am I the only one here who's black?' What the fuck does he want.. a chinese panel! is that black enough for him?

The way I see it Phumelela IS supportive of BEE policies; looking at their marketing management I think it's safe to say they've amply demonstrated that you don't need a BEE man in charge to fuck the system up, a white man can do it just as well.