MR of Variety Club and Jackson

magi!!

What about my post.

cumon barry..i think it is pretty obvious to see that they didnt run their races against ebony flyer...with regards to frequent flyer...FF ran off a 94 in the majorca..beating horses rated 100,99,105,106,103 etc etc..carrying the same weight as them...so pretty much the handicappers hands are tied with what to do with her rating because relatively must be kept..its easy to say yes it was a false run race etc but what will people be saying if all these horses met in a handicap next time and they all give FF weight even though she has beaten them here??? more shouts of the handicappers dont know what they doing etc etc..at the end of the day if the trainer decides to run his horse at level weights in gr1 races where he is out at the weights he mustnt moan when he gets a penalty! trainers should understand and know this is going to happen when they accept at those weight conditions..problem is they want the best of both worlds..you want to run in the gr1,against the best horses in that category in the country,and then if running well they dont want to be penalised so they can go back to the lower divisions and win..im sorry it doesnt work like that!

So is Frequent Flyer 102 or not? Integrity of the job comes from doing what you think is correct from that data that you have, the rest is bullshit.

ShezaPunter Wrote:

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> magi!!
>
> What about my post.


Oh okay... yours was half sensible !! (tu)

@Justin V - I agree with u wholeheartedly, but sometimes the programme is a huge source of frustration, in that we have no other options. The horse is ready to win, in its division, but no races exist. We goto a feature, run well and are penalised accordingly, fairly, as per the system. The problem is that we missed a win and are now brought back to the field, thus making it very difficult to get that next win.... The programme can be a nightmare to both handicapper and Trainer at times.

@ Karel - you have steadfastly called for sectional timing over the years and so correct you are. It is mindboggling that this is not au fait accompli already. The multitude of benefits of sectional timing must definitely include the benefit to us Trainers as well. This most vital tool is denied us all! !!

I agree 200% with Karel and Louis re sectional timing. A great number of so-called form reversals would also be explained, which would benefit everyone (punters, handicappers, trainers, etc) alike. An obvious side benefit of being able to explain "form reversals" is that people would be a little less hasty to shout "cheat!" every time they see a result which at first glance appears to make no sense.

I've been told that the great Jean Heming (Barnard), if asked to explain the "apparent improved running" of one of her horses, would always ask the Stipes, "Gentlemen, can you show me the sectional times for this race?" God knows if they truly understood what she was getting at, but she was way ahead of her time and, unfortunately, she was way ahead of today's time as well.

Some Trainer..

LOVE IT Lips! If things pan out today, I may just be doing the "Ma Heming'' story later today......pity it's such a strong field. ''went far too fast last time.....didnt they....???''

Karel,

I grew up in a country that not only has, but relies on sectional timing.

However, I hate to tell you this, but sectional timing will not add anything to the debate on Merit Ratings.

In American we don't have a handicapper that represents The Jockey Club. We are perhaps the only major racing country that does not have an official handicapper, if you can believe it!

What we do have, however, are three services that rate a horse's performance on a race-by-race basis. One is operated by Daily Racing Form and was established and is still overseen by Andy Beyer. The other two are the Ragozin Sheets and ThoroGraph, the former operated on principles established by Len Ragozin and the latter by a former Ragozin employee named Jerry Brown.

Beyer offers a straight forward "speed" figure based on the time of a race as compared to what Beyer determines the par or the norm would be for the conditions of that race.

Ragozin and ThoroGraph massage their numbers by taking into consideration such elements as ground loss, weight carried, time of the race, condition of the course, etc.

Sadly and interestingly, NONE of these folks has been able to deal with the impact of a race in which the early fractions (sectional timing) in determining the "quality" of the race, because as Americans, they are totally reliant on the Gawd All Mighty CLOCK.

Here is the problem:

1) There are individual races.

2) There is the overall quality of the animal.

Timeform, which in terms of scholarship and understanding of timing and class far outshines any other service of its kind or any handicapper on the face of the planet, has solved the problem.

They have one figure for the race.

And they have another figure for the quality of the animal.

They have made the leap by not being totally bound by the CLOCK.

The CLOCK is not going to help Merit Ratings because yours guys still look at it.

The reason the CLOCK will never, ever yield the true value of a race or worth of a racehorse in countries like England, France, Germany, Italy or South Africa, is because your races are not run in the manner of races run in America.

Yours style of riding and your tactics are exactly the opposite of those employed in America, where glib racing surfaces place a premium on speed. Speed rules the day in American racing. Not so in your country, where horses races resemble European indoor bike races. It's all about the tactics.

So in order for a handicapper to be able to assess the true worth of a horse, they have to look beyond the CLOCK.

Timeform can do it.

Your boys cannot.

How do I know this.

Karel, read what you said to me. You pointed out that a lower quality race on the same program as the Majorca had posted a faster final time, so the handicappers' hands were tied.

Timeform would not have a problem with this because have the subjective savvy to look beyond the freaking CLOCK.

I know more about the CLOCK and what it says than any of you will ever know simply because I have been exposed to it all of my life. And I am telling you first hand that the CLOCK is NOT the answer.

Racing is about quality.

Being able to understand quality requires a proper perspective of the importance of the CLOCK. And not placing too much importance on it.

Geez, even in athletics (track and field), which relies more heavily on the CLOCK than any other sport, does not base their ratings strictly on the frigging CLOCK. Ratings are based on what type of races have been won and which athletes finished in front of the other athletes.

Having a horse like Ebony Flyer ranked below some of the horses which she has dusted in top races is comical and shows a total lack of understanding of quality.

But you guys are mired down in an arcane system that keeps you prisoners.

I love South African racing and have enjoyed my experiences. But if I relied on Merit Ratings to run my stable I'd be in deep horse pucky.

great thread,barry if i may ask what rating do you give her?and secondly surely she will be aimed at set weight races in the natal season so why are you concrned about her rating ?

Pirates, I like to be able to understand these things. I always have.

Pirates, in American, we understand what a fickle witch the CLOCK can be.

And, as a life-long athletics fan, I know how the CLOCK can lie and confuse.

To rely on the clock and not to put it in its proper perspective is to miss the point of rating the relative worth of a racehorse.