Calling the Handicappers or Vee or any experts?!

louisg Wrote:

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> The following refer -
>
> Flash is correct - takes the honest, consistent
> horse/trainer forever to get the horse back to the
> correct rating, once it has been overrated. This,
> more than anything, creates an exodus of Owners,
> for obvious reasons.
>
> This "GREAT SYSTEM" creates the following -
> 1)more lower rated multiple winners than higher
> rated multiple winners - it stops horses.
> 2)it rewards mediocrity.
> 3)it results in horses going through the divisions
> without winning a race, just by being consistent.
>
> And if thats what you want - a system that stops
> good horses, then so be it.

Louis, I am in full agreement with your sentiments. (tu)

I am sure M.Lips is now employed by the NHRA,maybe he should be asked to comment or brief all the trainers and maybe ask them for suggestions how to fix the problem.I n the olden days the system worked and most laymen knew the penalties which would be imposed They had to change something that worked is beyond belief.The NHRA needs a total clean out.When you read that it is being proposed by a member for the entire tax generated by bookmakers at R103 million be given to the NHRA then you must shudder,this money would then reduce stakes by the same amount and do you really think we will be better controlled.

yeh why not have 4 maiden plates and the rest of the card made up of grads novices progress and pinnacles and lets see how fast owners leave the game then....fields will be nice and small turnover down and more bitching and moaning...tell me louis whats the definition of a good horse to you and secondly how many you got in your yard ?95 percent of any horse population is made up of shit horses and looking at the british system 60 PERCENT OF ALL RACES in britian are made up of handicaps ...

i now many of the clevers hear now the lot more than me about the current handicapping. i now that the jockey club is do these system for the reason to use the "international standard". for me i believe we should encourage a horse to win as many race as what he can. for me the old race figure system is the far better system for the owner and the THINKING trainer. If a one time winner has the more capability than the 6 time winner why he must be punished? let him win hes races. to me we have so few horse leave the country we should not care of international standards. people want to see champions no 6 yo 6 time winners who have a mr of 68. the race figure system was no perfect but to me much better than these rubbish we have today. is my opinion,

whitehouse Wrote:

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> I am sure M.Lips is now employed by the
> NHRA,maybe he should be asked to comment or brief
> all the trainers and maybe ask them for
> suggestions how to fix the problem.I n the olden
> days the system worked and most laymen knew the
> penalties which would be imposed They had to
> change something that worked is beyond belief.The
> NHRA needs a total clean out.When you read that it
> is being proposed by a member for the entire tax
> generated by bookmakers at R103 million be given
> to the NHRA then you must shudder,this money would
> then reduce stakes by the same amount and do you
> really think we will be better controlled.

whitehouse think a little bit re. the 103 million where do it go today? it go to shareholders of the operator or the operator it self. i agree with the guy who make his sugestion. the jockey club is the puppy of the operator. is simple as that. the operator pay the jockey club salary how any one with the brain can think these is natural or healthy is impossible. so imagine the jockey club is independant. much better for raceing. no question maybe even as good as what they are in the day when the jockey club rule raceing like they should,

pirates Wrote:

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> yeh why not have 4 maiden plates and the rest of
> the card made up of grads novices progress and
> pinnacles and lets see how fast owners leave the
> game then....fields will be nice and small
> turnover down and more bitching and moaning...tell
> me louis whats the definition of a good horse to
> you and secondly how many you got in your yard ?95
> percent of any horse population is made up of shit
> horses and looking at the british system 60
> PERCENT OF ALL RACES in britian are made up of
> handicaps ...


pirates 40% of the current population should no be in racing they are so bad. is the thieves that charge owner for horse to maybe win one race every year if you lucky. is only trainer who score from train bad horse or may be you can educate the stupid like me why 4yo maidens after 12 runs are worth keep?

Flash Harry Wrote:

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> pirates Wrote:
>

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>

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> > yeh why not have 4 maiden plates and the rest
> of
> > the card made up of grads novices progress and
> > pinnacles and lets see how fast owners leave
> the
> > game then....fields will be nice and small
> > turnover down and more bitching and
> moaning...tell
> > me louis whats the definition of a good horse
> to
> > you and secondly how many you got in your yard
> ?95
> > percent of any horse population is made up of
> shit
> > horses and looking at the british system 60
> > PERCENT OF ALL RACES in britian are made up of
> > handicaps ...
>
>
> pirates 40% of the current population should no be
> in racing they are so bad. is the thieves that
> charge owner for horse to maybe win one race every
> year if you lucky. is only trainer who score from
> train bad horse or may be you can educate the
> stupid like me why 4yo maidens after 12 runs are
> worth keep?


its the same all over the world flash not every horse can be a wolf power

sure hylton i agree. the difference is the current system prolong the mongrel life no shorten it. the rf system is easy you no perform on the level you are on and you out. the current system place a 7 yo 4 time winner at the advantage of a 3yo maiden winner after 2 start. if these is what you want then we have the problem.

Flash Harry Wrote:

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> sure hylton i agree. the difference is the current
> system prolong the mongrel life no shorten it. the
> rf system is easy you no perform on the level you
> are on and you out. the current system place a 7
> yo 4 time winner at the advantage of a 3yo maiden
> winner after 2 start. if these is what you want
> then we have the problem.


lets just agree to disagree on this topic

agreed.

I am not interested in arguing with you Pirates. As I said, if you like the system, the mindset, then so be it. Opinion.

But, to the other forumites, my argument's basis is that, firstly, the problem is at the root of the system. The first ratings given to horses, to maidens, where they run at level weights. When they bump each other again in a handicap, the system is shown up many more times than not.

Secondly, the very crux of MR, at its inception in SA (this is SA and I dont give a damn about any other country or what does or doesnt work there), MR was brought in to give the weaker horses a chance. That was the goal. But the reverse has happened.

Instead of dropping the weaker horses, we now punish the others. The system has failed so badly, that the weaker ones are a complete nightmare. Proof of this is PE and the reasons given by the handicappers for the 6 points. Apparently, there is a "creep effect" to the system there and they cannot seperate horses, so they get 6 points...:S

The whole mindset is to raise a horse to what rating that horse has run to. The imbalance, the "broken see saw, " is the fact that whilst we raise any and every horse to its achieved rating, we neglect two fundamentals - 1) we do not adjust the entire field and 2) we are adjusting upwards, based upon the ratings around that adjusted horse, albeit that we have already overrated the ratings of those horses...or not dropped them when we should have.

And because we do not adjust the merit of every loser but we do adjust the merit of every winner, then strictly speaking, we are not applying Merit Rating. We are using Merit Rating to stop horses.

The handicappers restrictions were relaxed, two years ago. Things have gotten worse since then, as the mindset is entrenched - the horse earned it, it must carry it. And we forget to drop those that are too high...

Having raced for 40 years I have raced under both the race figure and MR systems.
Neither is perfect but the race figure system served the industry better IMO.
The MR system is liable to manipulation, is subjective and therefore controversial-everybody understood the RF system and what is often misunderstood was that there was a discretionary factor built into the system( although seldom implemented)
Racing didn't collapse under the RF system before and wouldn't now-socialism isn't the best system for people so why should it be for horses?...lol
I believe that the Mr system has caused more problems than it solved!