Strange tote movements

My mate,who has been an operator for many years,happens to be personally handling his terminals, today and tomorrow,due to a staff member on leave.
He has promised to effect some checks on the issues we have been discussing........stand by as hopefully he can add some info.

Dave i have on occasion cancelled a place bet not too large r1000 (wrong number taken) granted it was not 5 minutes before the off but about 15 minutes the operator took down my name and id number and the reason for cancelling even though I immediately replaced it with another bet. I think the telebet records might show some serious manipulation on certain accounts and by facilitating these cheats Phumelela is showing legitimate customers that they are not important. There is obviously a paper trail(electronic) to each winning ticket so expose the truth if there is nothing to hide

Mr H ,why are cancellations your main concern?...all it takes is bets placed late enough to be on a known result to cause this recent phenomena.

Rob because it is very easy to prove large cancellations are happening and the persons involved are all local punters so why are they not being stopped(being going on for years)? This new move is something we can only speculate on while a cursory check on certain tab accounts will show who the culprits are and there can be immediate action taken for fraud and financial irregularities that have been taking place with Phumelelas direct knowledge if they are auditing properly. If a bet is struck it affects thousands of punters as does a malicious cancellation. The operator by facilitating this practise is jeopardising my bet and misusing its position as a betting provider and opening itself up to investigation by the public protector (if his office has the power to investigate in this matter). To speculate on the co mingling scenario is premature until an official explanation is forthcoming if ever?(i would hope that the idea put foward by yourself and others is incorrect - if it is indeed true I will NEVER use the Tote again and will support other providers)

Al im sure that the only place you can bet into the South African pools from the UK are from Betfair and betting into a blind pool is not going to appeal to any of them guys..

Mr H,I hope I'm wrong too,except if we never find what is causing this situation it can't be rectified.
For a long time the Tote vs books stats were kept as there were ongoing arguments as to where the value lay.It would be interesting to see if they are suddenly very different,but manipulations won't be on every race...they wouldn't be that stupid,surely.
I agree that cancellations are easier to show,but harder to prove as theft/fraud.
Unfortunately,if there is skullduggery,it will just go away and never be exposed.
Question:in all your years of racing have you ever read of a tote employee being charged with theft...not me...and I can assure you it has happened...I was involved in the insurances for a number of years.Perhaps what leads to my cynicism.

This has to be a very easy thing to do for the operator..everyticket has a no a time etc etc

All we are looking for is where were the win bets taken on this horse that dropped its win dividend so much after the off.

At this stage cancelled bets ..we are not asking for..we want to know at what time were the win bets taken on this horse and where were they taken..so we have some info to start with

Lets rather get one small detail of one horse and take it from there

This has been going on for a long time, it surprises me (not) that Phum hav'nt launched an official investigation....bottom line ???

I see in race 2 at CWD Horse 12 drifts from 2/1 to 3/1 wins and pays R2.50 (15/10) a win.Defies the theory of co-minglers backing horses that shorten
Autumn Breeze was the backed horse(10/1 to 4/1) but that didn't fool them at all!

All due respect Rob,

If you were in Hong Kong/Aus.....Would you back Roberts/Stureon/Saf breed....or would you back De Kock/Delpech with an Argentinian pedigree.

I'm not sure that was the best example.

I don't say that comingling is fair but I do think we have to look at all the factors. P has a lot of explaining to do, but I still don't think our problems come from cheating/manipulating. Why are these lugs then only cheating on the favourites...why not on the long shots too (with greedy pigs getting slaughtered and all)

Just look at the pools....They are increasing by 400% in some races. People are betting from overseas and diluting our payouts, no doubt....and for that we need some explanaitions and also some prior warning.

I don't think we are headed down the right direction if we are looking for cheats in SAf that are making these HUGE moves.........

scotia, when you say a bet can be cancelled 20secs after the off, do you mean the punter or the operator...

Lets do an experiment. It is now 15-minutes before the off of the next Durban event.

Bet on Blue is paying R4-00 a win and Into the Mist is paying R5-00 a win.

I BET you anything that Into the mist starts a VERY short favourite on the tote after the comingled pools.....whether it wins or not.

Lets have a look