louisg tell the nha they are clue less

The general public when it comes to racing want to see and back HERO'S (Horse Chestnuts, Sea Cottage,etc,etc) These horses no longer stay on our shores and this is killing our game. You cant however blame the owners for taking their hero's overseas as they are not being "catered" for in SA. It is because the top stakes are to low in comparison to overseas. The MR system as it is, with all its faults is killing the game for the "racing industry" on a day to day basis. (The industries bread and butter). It makes us all sour and puts a question mark on potential new owners entering the game. Mainly because new owners are brought into the game from being friends of existing owners or punters that want to own a horse. With both parties they are in the know with regards our industry and its problems. How can this conducive/attractive for the growth of horse racing ? IMO we need a huge clean up in all areas of racing in SA not just the MR system.

Lets keep ratings and race conditions separate....

MR is certainly the best way to assess a horse's form. Its what successful punters do. Frodo, Shrek, Pirates and co all clearly use their own ratings to handicap a race. Where they disagree with the handicapper they identify an opportunity to bet.

I however feel that rating a horse's ability and offering racing and betting opportunities to owners and punters are 2 different things. The MR or similar rating system is the best way to rate horses. The RFS or plate/conditions criteria is the best way to put on races for owners, present better betting opportunities for punters and better reflect ability in the stud book(in my humble opinion).

From an owner's perspective we all go to sales to buy a top horse. Yes I know the large majority are moderate. And yes, i do understand that the MR system better caters for a moderate horse. But here is the problem: You need an INCONSISTENT moderate horse! If you run close up 4ths 5ths 6ths and 7ths, you have zero chance of being dropped. You need to run badly to be dropped and become competitive again.Three or four bad runs and then as per Ziets copyright....Boooom!

Another concern is the effect on the stud book. A moderate filly wins its maiden as a four year old. It then has 4 bad runs out the maidens gets dropped and wins and so the pattern continues and it racks up 4/5 wins. A decent horse wins 1 or 2 early on- gets hammered by the handicapper (rightly so as it is a superior horse to the one described above) and retires a 1/2 time winner.

If a horse has ability I want it to win its races. If its not too clever, then so be it. I have owned , punted and bred horses (slow ones and the odd not so slow ones) and i accept that we pay alot to get them to the track and that chances are that they will be moderate and that MR 64's will be their chance to earn, but if thats what it is about, then no thanks.

With regards betting opportunities: in a RFS and set weights environment, there are far more opportunities where the ratings we as punters give the horses will deliver a betting opportunity against the weights to be carried. In an MR handicap, by definition, the better the handicappers do their job, the harder it is for any punter to find an opportunity.

MR the horses, like a Timeform rating. Publish its highest rating achieved in the studbook. But dont make 3/4s of our races MR handicaps. Please.....

Guys

winning 10 races beating rubbish is no good.

and when wanting to race abroad either as an owner or seller you cant arrive in dubai a 10 time winner and no handicap mark because SA 'doen nie handicaps nie"

We have to get it absolutely right. Many young horses are being given away or sold as they are not rated right and are too high after winning especially if they win early. We had Rocabar which I know 1 poster will remember, and after winning her 2nd race in the heavy at Greyville and was given a merit rating of 83 in May!The meeting was abandoned after that 1 race. She ran 1 5th in her next 15 runs and stopped racing as a mr 37. The runner up won 1 race and never ran a place again in 8 runs. Clearly rated very wrong in the 1st place and ruined the rest of her career. That was an extreme example but there are many others. Talk to any trainer.

Craig

then surely the answer is to add claimers and sellers into sa racing.

In the case above you as the trainer would surely SELL that horse with a high rating knowing you would be better off than trying to race it another 15 times?

Old Uncle Joey Joseph used to say to me(and I am sure others) " don't by a horse that someone is trying to sell, buy the one he does not want to sell" Pretty true.

keniza999 Wrote:

---

> Frodo Wrote:
>

---

>

---

> > gregbucks Wrote:
> >
>

---

>
> >

---

> > > Has the MR system chased away punters cause
> > they
> > > don't understand it or where never educated
> > about
> > > it when it was introduced??
> >
> >
> > So who is responsible for 'educating the
> punters'
> > ? Nobody 'educates' me when I'm trying to
> figure
> > out where I can get my beers at the cheapest
> price
> > - and nobody 'educates' me on whether the fact
> > that de Villiers is starting for WP this
> weekend
> > boosts their winning chance - it is up to me to
> > figure out these things- sometimes I think the
> > 'punters' are plain too lazy to use their
> brains
> > :S
>
> I disagree with you Frodo, horse racing punting is
> a special skill. I believe the reason most people
> walk away or do not come into racing is because
> they don't know how to win and nobody can afford
> to lose perpetually unless they are addicts......
>
> So you want to pull the crowd to racing and then
> hope that somehow they will figure it out on their
> own? as strange as it sounds a lot of punters
> still can't differentiate between a maiden and a
> handicap.....
>
> if you want people to stay in the game then teach
> them how to enjoy it. Those in charge of racing
> must educate their clientele



Disagreement makes for good arguments (tu)

Loooking at your points one by one:

1. Horseracing is speciall skill - agreed

2. I believe the reason most people
> walk away or do not come into racing is because
> they don't know how to win and nobody can afford
> to lose perpetually unless they are addicts......

Are 'most people walking away' - looking at the growth in the pools I'd argue 'No' - in fact I see the opposite happening; imo nobody can teach anybody 'how to win', but I agree that most people need a little help - but who should offer this help - if you argue the operators and /or the tote - perhaps yes, but they seem to be doing ok just as things stand - so why should they offer to help? And how should they help - give lessons? Publish an article on 'what is merit rating and how does it influence your bets' in the newspaper - will this help to stop punters 'walking away' (your words) and out of a 100 people 'walking away', how many of them would 'turn back' to punting after having read the article - 5, 10, 50 ? So is it 'worth' it?

3. So you want to pull the crowd to racing and then
> hope that somehow they will figure it out on their
> own? as strange as it sounds a lot of punters
> still can't differentiate between a maiden and a
> handicap.....

I figured it out on my own - why can't 'they' ?


4. if you want people to stay in the game then teach
> them how to enjoy it. Those in charge of racing
> must educate their clientele

In principle I would agree with this statement ; however the devil lies in the details - how exactly should the 'clientele' be 'educated'?

gregbucks Wrote:

---

> So Frodo, the guy in the tote has access to
> internet to learn about merit rating systems??
>
>
> Funny how the casino's have on the floor customer
> service helping there patrons out, one reason why
> there business is thriving...


So how did they learn about race figure systems originally ?

As I said in my reply to ken; in principle I could agree with the 'education' point; but how should it be done and how far does one go?

And now we have successfully hi-jacked the thread (again) <

Craig,

Mr Joseph was a legend but to be fair only in SA.

Every single champion was bought from someone, one should not be afraid of buying and selling horses. Sometimes trainers do well with "cast outs"

every year i go to the tatts hit sale. and some pretty decent animals get sold.

then i look at the USA system and it works.

So for me that is the missing thing in sa racing. claimers and selling races. Introduce those and the rest will start to sort itself out.

ps: remember you can have a selling race for R1million

Harry
As u so often do, u make assumptions without having the facts. Rather let those who actually know something about the subject carry on with the thread now.

1) It's not my lack of understanding of the system that is in question here, but the system itself and thereafter the application of it.... unless , of course, you can show me where I place my horses badly.
2)What utter crap is sometimes spoken when all facts and indeed, circumstances are not considered. You have a go at Coenie de Beer for running 4th, out at the weights. That's fine, but please show me other races for this 5 yo Mare, that he could have run in, off her rating. How many more times should she have been eliminated and been stuck in her stable ?
3)Please tell me what the parameter changes were last year in March, then the changes we made to them ? ( Yes, Harry, stupid me who doesn't "know the system" was part of that committee. A year and a half of allowing them more freedom, wider parameters, they have gone from bad to crisis.
4)Irrespective of what "the system that I don't understand" says, please confirm your expertise even further and justify to me that a horse that could not win on sand after two attempts, now gets to carry an extra 3kg on sand,just because of its Turf win. This whilst a horse gets 11kg penalty for a weak 4th on the sand, but has her turf rating STAY THE SAME. The system is wrong, unfair and poorly applied.

I can only give the facts, Harry.

Taban Wrote:

---

> Lets keep ratings and race conditions
> separate....
>
> MR is certainly the best way to assess a horse's
> form. Its what successful punters do. Frodo,
> Shrek, Pirates and co all clearly use their own
> ratings to handicap a race. Where they disagree
> with the handicapper they identify an opportunity
> to bet.
>
> I however feel that rating a horse's ability and
> offering racing and betting opportunities to
> owners and punters are 2 different things. The MR
> or similar rating system is the best way to rate
> horses. The RFS or plate/conditions criteria is
> the best way to put on races for owners, present
> better betting opportunities for punters and
> better reflect ability in the stud book(in my
> humble opinion).
>
> From an owner's perspective we all go to sales to
> buy a top horse. Yes I know the large majority are
> moderate. And yes, i do understand that the MR
> system better caters for a moderate horse. But
> here is the problem: You need an INCONSISTENT
> moderate horse! If you run close up 4ths 5ths 6ths
> and 7ths, you have zero chance of being dropped.
> You need to run badly to be dropped and become
> competitive again.Three or four bad runs and then
> as per Ziets copyright....Boooom!
>
> Another concern is the effect on the stud book. A
> moderate filly wins its maiden as a four year old.
> It then has 4 bad runs out the maidens gets
> dropped and wins and so the pattern continues and
> it racks up 4/5 wins. A decent horse wins 1 or 2
> early on- gets hammered by the handicapper
> (rightly so as it is a superior horse to the one
> described above) and retires a 1/2 time winner.
>
> If a horse has ability I want it to win its races.
> If its not too clever, then so be it. I have owned
> , punted and bred horses (slow ones and the odd
> not so slow ones) and i accept that we pay alot to
> get them to the track and that chances are that
> they will be moderate and that MR 64's will be
> their chance to earn, but if thats what it is
> about, then no thanks.
>
> With regards betting opportunities: in a RFS and
> set weights environment, there are far more
> opportunities where the ratings we as punters give
> the horses will deliver a betting opportunity
> against the weights to be carried. In an MR
> handicap, by definition, the better the
> handicappers do their job, the harder it is for
> any punter to find an opportunity.
>
> MR the horses, like a Timeform rating. Publish its
> highest rating achieved in the studbook. But dont
> make 3/4s of our races MR handicaps. Please.....


Well put - but I would hesitate in calling myself a 'successful punter' - I believe the proof in this case lies in the bank balance - and mine sort of does not fall in the 'successful' category

Oh, Harry, just to help you a little bit..... ANY and EVERY juvenile (now 3 years old) which ran in open company was given the 6 point increase, NO MATTER WHERE IT FINISHED !!

As I said, Harry, get the FACTS.